Cancel culture IRL

[Dr. Keith]

Factually wrong, or morally wrong? Which sense of wrong do you mean?

I'm not sure it matters. I am certain that facts don't matter. And I'm pretty sure that morals don't matter. Is there any way to actually tell if one is wrong today other than to check the balance on your bank account?

Jeff Bezos is less wrong than I am, and pulling away?

My kid is more wrong than I am, but gaining quickly?

That sure sounds wrong, but I doubt there is a wrong. There are actions that add to your value and actions that detract from it. We all know that, even as we take each action. That next drink could be the one that reduces my value a lot. Finishing that email I started ten minutes ago is an action that will slightly increase my value.

Deciding not to take a stupid stand on twitter has been the best investment I've ever made.

Damion can't make me pay for Disney+ if they do things I don't like. And I can't make him pay for Disney+ if they do things he doesn't like. So they make the choice that makes the most sense based on money. Disney looks to be more right than either of us.

 

[d4m10n]

You’ll notice that no one is actually going to defend Carano’s behavior.

Immoral behaviour doesn't always justify employer action. It's immoral to post anti-vax memes on Facebook, but we shouldn't sack everyone who does. Clinicians, perhaps.

 

[lobosrul5]

Immoral behaviour doesn't always justify employer action. It's immoral to post anti-vax memes on Facebook, but we shouldn't sack everyone who does. Clinicians, perhaps.

I disagree. I think not only is it fine for employer's to "lay-off*" employee's that post ant-vax conspiracy BS, I think they should be commended. Spreading that BS costs people their lives! Thats their decision though, being coerced by the government would be a gross violation of their rights to free speech.

*Where I reside, employee's are entitled to unemployment insurance except when fired for being unwilling to perform their work. Posting anti-vax memes would not mean loss of unemployment benefits nor should it IMO.

 

[Cavemonster]

It turns out that older people rarely go on witch-hunts. Maybe because they have lived long enough to doubt their own certainty.

I suppose it partly depends how you define old and young.

If you mean like septegenarians and up, historically there have generally been fewer of them and they're either ensconced in power, pulling the strings or languishing in discomfort as their body decays.

I've known some very wise older folks but historically, you have misidentified your causal markers.

If you're looking for younger people hunting witches, Cotton Mather and the Salem judges seems to be middle aged, and the whole belief in witches thing was an old tradition that new generations had to leave behind.

Joe McCarthy was middle aged. J Edgar Hoover kept going into his 70s.

Looking at the bunch of winners who stormed the capital, it's not a young bunch on average. The guy who had his feet up on the speaker's desk was 60. Folks younger than 30 are a pretty small minority. Even the shaman guy is in his 30s.

I mean, you missed my point by a mile to begin with and this all has absolutley nothing to do with what I was saying, but the bizarre direction you took it to is also just wrong as well. You are fractally incorrect on every level.

 

[johnny karate]

Projection once again. As I said above, I enjoyed the Cara Dune character (nice to see a woman playing the badass fighter for a change)...

As has been repeatedly pointed out, there are multiple “badass fighters” played by women on The Mandalorian and in the Star Wars universe. I’m not sure why you insist on framing it like Carano was the only one.

... and I've not yet seen a good enough reason to scrub it from the lineup. Thread moves pretty fast, though, I may have missed what that reason was. Still looks like an implicit morality clause (backed up by a Twitter mob) from where I'm sitting.

It’s great that you don’t let your ignorance of the topic stop you from forming an opinion.

 

[Cavemonster]

I'm certainly in favor of employee protections in general. I think "right to work" is a crock.
But even under expanded protections I don't think actors should be guaranteed being rehired on continuing projects.

 

[Distracted1]

I'm certainly in favor of employee protections in general. I think "right to work" is a crock.
But even under expanded protections I don't think actors should be guaranteed being rehired on continuing projects.

Being fired is not the same thing as not being re-hired.

 

[johnny karate]

Immoral behaviour doesn't always justify employer action. It's immoral to post anti-vax memes on Facebook, but we shouldn't sack everyone who does. Clinicians, perhaps.

I’m not sure Disney, or anyone else, have cited immortality as a justification (other than disingenuous wokescolds trying to frame the issue in a way most convenient to their arguments), but behavior was definitely a factor here. As in, she engaged in behavior that Disney found damaging to their brand and they reacted accordingly.

Not that you would be in a position to know, conveniently unburdened with the facts as you are.

 

[d4m10n]

If your public persona was created with heavy investment by your corporate overlord then you can be expect that they will have some influence over your off-the-clock behavior.

Her "public persona" (such as it was) existed prior to The Mandalorian. Carano's profile was "badass fighter," which might explain why she was cast as such.

As has been repeatedly pointed out, there are multiple “badass fighters” played by women on The Mandalorian and in the Star Wars universe.

If Cara Dune was recast as a lithe swordswoman, would that be the same kind of badass fighter, in your view?

...she engaged in behavior that Disney found damaging to their brand and they reacted accordingly.

Moral or immoral behavior, in your view?

(I hope we can all agree that employers ought never sack someone for engaging in morally upright behavior.)

 

[angrysoba]

I am concerned about the general principle here, that we are happily assenting to the idea that corporations ought to vet their employees based on ideological or political expressions made outside of the workplace. Not seeing any reason why that principle would prove to be self-limiting to well-paid employees, nor any reason why it would limit itself to people who express right-wing opinions, given the prior history of Hollywood blacklists.

Okay, but this whole idea of "assenting" to something suggests a way that people can dissent from this. How can this be done? What mechanisms do you propose?

Here are my proposals:

If you are a public figure who wants to get work on a TV station, but you also want to write tweets to trigger the libs, then get a lawyer to write in some clauses in your contract that recognize this.

In this case, she was on the same TV show with Bill Burr. Has Bill Burr ever been known to say anything controversial? Well,... yes, in fact that's pretty much what he is known for. So why has he not been fired yet? I am sure some people want him to be.

I'm going to guess that it probably has something to do with the contracts he had drawn up by his lawyers.

Also, to counteract powerful companies, probably the best thing to have is powerful unions.

Do Ben Shapiro, Ted Cruz and Dave Rubin support powerful unions? I'm going to guess that they do not. In fact, I am going to guess that pretty much everything they do and say involves giving more power to large corporations.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure it matters. I am certain that facts don't matter. And I'm pretty sure that morals don't matter. Is there any way to actually tell if one is wrong today other than to check the balance on your bank account?

Jeff Bezos is less wrong than I am, and pulling away?

My kid is more wrong than I am, but gaining quickly?

That sure sounds wrong, but I doubt there is a wrong. There are actions that add to your value and actions that detract from it. We all know that, even as we take each action. That next drink could be the one that reduces my value a lot. Finishing that email I started ten minutes ago is an action that will slightly increase my value.

Deciding not to take a stupid stand on twitter has been the best investment I've ever made.

Damion can't make me pay for Disney+ if they do things I don't like. And I can't make him pay for Disney+ if they do things he doesn't like. So they make the choice that makes the most sense based on money. Disney looks to be more right than either of us.

Social Credit System^WP here we come!

 

[angrysoba]

Social Credit System^WP here we come!

Yes, I would like to return to that world that definitely once existed where people did not have to care about things they said affecting their reputation at all.

 

[d4m10n]

Also, to counteract powerful companies, probably the best thing to have is powerful unions.

Should the Screen Actors Guild^WP stand on the principle that members should be allowed to state unpopular political opinions in public, even when studios find it inconvenient? (Ask yourself the question twice, once in the 1950's and once again seven decades later.)

 

[angrysoba]

Should the Screen Actors Guild^WP stand on the principle that members should be allowed to state unpopular political opinions in public, even when studios find it inconvenient? (Ask yourself the question twice, once in the 1950's and once again seven decades later.)

Maybe, yeah.

What is your solution? What are your proposals?

It is all well and good to say, "I am concerned about the general principle here..."

But what does this concern lead to?

As far as I can see, despite being less concerned than you, I have been offering far more practical suggestions than you.

 

[dirtywick]

This isn’t even a debate about what’s going on in the world.

First of all, Gina Carano wasn’t fired for political opinions. Conspiracy theories and anti Semitic images aren’t political views, and neither is comparing the persecution and ethnic cleansing of millions of Jews to people being made fun of on the internet isn’t a political opinion. Or encouraging people to break mask mandates, or that the Clintons killed Epstein, or election fraud claims.

One could see how that’s especially hurtful to some people. After making months of anti-semetic posts and memes and supporting alt right conspiracy theories comparing her critics to the real nazis is a especially distasteful.

Political views? Let’s be real.

But worse still she simply wasn’t listening to the warnings she was given. In late 2020 she was warned about her social media posts and was aware that it had already cost her a cara dune spinoff. even her fellow actors had discussions with her about why they are personally hurtful. Yet she continued to her own misfortune.

 

[johnny karate]

Should the Screen Actors Guild^WP stand on the principle that members should be allowed to state unpopular political opinions in public, even when studios find it inconvenient? (Ask yourself the question twice, once in the 1950's and once again seven decades later.)

What political opinion did Carano express?

Also, who in the 1950s lost a job for publicly expressed political opinions?

 

[d4m10n]

Maybe, yeah.

Perhaps we don't disagree, then. I'd like to see SAG-AFTRA spending some more of their social capital giving cover to actors who speak out. I'd also like to see people with highly unpopular opinions (e.g. God is dead, blasphemy is a victimless crime, open borders are probably fine) get on board with a general rollback of public shaming and corporate policing. If you've never held a highly unpopular opinion, then I don't expect you to relate.

What political opinion did Carano express?

Here you go.

Carano was nowhere to be found during the lengthy presentation. In the lead-up to the event, Carano had become a lightning rod among Star Wars fans and a headache for Lucasfilm, after a series of tweets in which she mocked mask-wearing, suggested voter fraud occurred during the 2020 election and shared posts that some viewed as transphobic.

 

[johnny karate]

If Cara Dune was recast as a lithe swordswoman, would that be the same kind of badass fighter, in your view?

I see we’re resorting to subcategories of “badass fighter” after your original claim proved to be demonstrably false.

Moral or immoral behavior, in your view?

In my personal view? Her behavior was more obnoxious and petulant than anything else, but the conspiracy theory garbage probably veered into immorality. And I think it’s the former that her coworkers and employers tired of more than the latter.

(I hope we can all agree that employers ought never sack someone for engaging in morally upright behavior.)

As far as I know, that only happens in the GOP.

 

[johnny karate]

Here you go.

There is zero reference to Carano’s political opinions in that article, let alone an explanation of what those political opinions are.

Did you mean to link to a different article?

 

[d4m10n]

I see we’re resorting to subcategories of “badass fighter” after your original claim proved to be demonstrably false.

Just tryna make room for the fact that some people will willfully misinterpret what I meant by "badass" the first time.

There is zero reference to Carano’s political opinions in that article, let alone an explanation of what those political opinions are.

I quoted three. Did you read the quote?

In late 2020 she was warned about her social media posts and was aware that it had already cost her a cara dune spinoff.

Which posts do you have in mind?