Cancel culture IRL

[johnny karate]

"Mayfeld is portrayed by actor and comedian Bill Burr, who was not a fan of Star Wars and repeatedly mocked the franchise and its fans before he accepted the role. The Mandalorian creator Jon Favreau offered the part to Burr, believing his past criticism of the franchise would make his casting that much more amusing."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayfeld

With this sort of precedent, maybe they'll let Gina Carano come back as some sort of trans character to beep, bop and boop with R2-D2!

It's not like we need to take such a puerile show with such childishly immature fans seriously anyway.

Again, Burr was a guest star not a series regular.

A series regular is usually considered more of the “face” of a show and is involved in promotional and PR aspects.

Guest stars aren’t any of that, nor are they under contract and therefore not held to the same standards.

 

[angrysoba]

Disney hired Bill Burr because he’s Bill Burr. Whatever offensive things he’s said in his standup career were already known and part of the package. Furthermore, he was only a guest star, not a series regular. Different set of standards.

Right, and like I said, If you are a public figure who wants to get work on a TV station, but you also want to write tweets to trigger the libs, then get a lawyer to write in some clauses in your contract that recognize this.

And to suggest that sexism played a role in Carano’s removal raises the question of how so many other women on the show remain gainfully employed. Her removal wasn’t sexist anymore than it was political. Plenty of woman work in Star Wars and other Disney properties, and plenty of conservatives work in Hollywood.
The variable unique to Carano wasn’t her gender or her politics, it was her behavior.

That was a question to dam10n.

I'm not suggesting it was sexist. That said, the arguments you used are really, really bad ones. I could ask how many women are gainfully employed in Japan? Millions. Obviously no sexism here then!

Also, but how many conservative women work there?

 

[Cavemonster]

Again, Burr was a guest star not a series regular.

A series regular is usually considered more of the “face” of a show and is involved in promotional and PR aspects.

Guest stars aren’t any of that, nor are they under contract and therefore not held to the same standards.

The seasons are short, and unless I'm missing someone, only Mando and Grogu appear in even a majority of episodes.
"Guest Star" is also more a technical term than anything. Edward Herriman was billed as a guest Star in the credits of Gilmore girls and he was in the vast majority of episodes.

As I understand it "Guest Star" is more a union designation for how much you get paid than anything else.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The seasons are short, and unless I'm missing someone, only Mando and Grogu appear in even a majority of episodes.
"Guest Star" is also more a technical term than anything. Edward Herriman was billed as a guest Star in the credits of Gilmore girls and he was in the vast majority of episodes.

As I understand it "Guest Star" is more a union designation for how much you get paid than anything else.

Cara Dune was pretty much a recurring Character who was being set up to have her own shows. She appeared in seven of the sixteen episodes, the most of any supporting character, other than Moff Gideon who is the big bad of the two seasons and also appears seven times. Burr's character has appeared in just two episodes and while it is possible he might return, it did seem that his arc was finished pretty satisfactorily. He certainly wasn't a supporting character.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The idea that being under stress yourself is a perfectly good reason and excuse for giving someone else an additional helping of hard time... well, let's just say that whenever you hear that kind of reasoning, it should be your first indication that someone really IS an ass hole, and just rationalizing why it's ok to be one.

Dude, that was your reasoning for why it was okay for the doctors and nurses to add to the patient's stress.

I don't think you've thought this through.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Do actors, for example, have the chance to influence children out of earshot of other adults?

Yes. Especially ones on kids' shows, like Carano was.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Why do you think it's okay to lobby Disney to go with zero but not, say, four?

Have you written to Disney to express your opinion? Marvel re-hired James Gunn after he was widely supported after being cancelled and, in fact, had to go out of their way to change their scheduling (which would have cost them money) in order to accommodate a job he'd taken in the meantime. It might be worth your time.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're being sincere in your admiration for her character and the negative impact you feel her departure will have on the show, that is.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Marvel re-hired James Gunn after he was widely supported after being cancelled

I hate this term. Having to face the consequences of being an asshat in public is not "being cancelled" it's "being called out on your asshattery."

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

[...]nice to see a woman playing the badass fighter for a change[...]

I'm just going to assume that you've not watched much TV or film in the last, say, 20 years.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGirl

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I hate this term. Having to face the consequences of being an asshat in public is not "being cancelled" it's "being called out on your asshattery."

It's less applicable to Gunn, too, because he was specifically targeted by right-wingers as revenge for making a joke about Trump's weight, and because Disney hired him in the first place because of his unique voice - which includes the edgy things he says.

But the point is that if a company is seen to bow to public pressure, then the best way to counter that is to exert pressure yourself. It certainly seems like a better strategy than moaning on an obscure and outdated message board that the world has now lost it's only Badass Woman^TM.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Perhaps we don't disagree, then. I'd like to see SAG-AFTRA spending some more of their social capital giving cover to actors who speak out. I'd also like to see people with highly unpopular opinions (e.g. God is dead, blasphemy is a victimless crime, open borders are probably fine) get on board with a general rollback of public shaming and corporate policing. If you've never held a highly unpopular opinion, then I don't expect you to relate.

Then why not go with a real star like Mel Gibson, shouldn't studios have been obligated to give him more staring roles and films to direct after his little political statement about the jews?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Cara Dune was pretty much a recurring Character who was being set up to have her own shows. She appeared in seven of the sixteen episodes, the most of any supporting character, other than Moff Gideon who is the big bad of the two seasons and also appears seven times.

She also had dramatically more lines and screen time in all the episodes they were in than him.

 

[Cavemonster]

It's just reframing the debate dishonestly, because now you they can say "it's wrong for an employer to punish someone for political views" even though that's not what happened.

I have noticed this defensive tactic over the last year or so constantly, here on the forum, on reddit, on facebook, in the media.

Any objectionable speech that by conservatives, no matter the content, is distilled to something benign like "just having an opinion" or "having a different view".

Rush Limbaugh celebrated the deaths of people from AIDS? How can you hate on him for having a different opinion, such an intolerant liberal!

I'm sure the tactic goes back farther, but it seems to be enjoying a wide popularity right now.

 

[Mumbles]

But again, Bill Burr says unpopular/controversial things all the time. Somehow he hasn’t got “cancelled” whereas Gina Carano did. What is the reason for this? Did she breach terms of her contract? Did Bill Burr have extra terms in his contract? Both seem reasonable possibilities.

Or maybe sexism is involved? Women might be seen by studios as easier to fire?

Do we know?

Burr's a stand-up comedian - and by most metrics (and my opinion) a good one, in large part because he's very clear on the fact that he's no better than anyone he's aiming at. Also, he's a known quantity - he's been active for what, decades now? He's not going to surprise anyone with some crappy take all of a sudden.

Are there people who get mad at his comedy on Twitter? Of course, when is somebody not mad on Twitter? Do I love *everything* Bill Burr does? I mean, no, but that's fine. But there's a difference between good comedy, and the false grievance and bigotry that people pass off as "funny" when it's really just...not.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Burr's a stand-up comedian - and by most metrics (and my opinion) a good one, in large part because he's very clear on the fact that he's no better than anyone he's aiming at. Also, he's a known quantity - he's been active for what, decades now? He's not going to surprise anyone with some crappy take all of a sudden.

Are there people who get mad at his comedy on Twitter? Of course, when is somebody not mad on Twitter? Do I love *everything* Bill Burr does? I mean, no, but that's fine. But there's a difference between good comedy, and the false grievance and bigotry that people pass off as "funny" when it's really just...not.

It also helps that Bill Burr largely plays characters very similar to his stand-up stage persona. You can barely call it acting, he's basically the same guy in all his roles.

He's a Boston loudmouth stereotype, crassness is part of his appeal. His characters often lean on this trait. He treads a narrow path that has many of the traits of the racist, sexist uncle, but none of the actual substance that makes such a character unacceptable in polite company.

As far as I can tell, the Cara Dune character was supposed to be more likeable and not supposed to be a incorrigible blow hard. her off work behavior is undermining the intended goal of the character she is hired to play.

 

[johnny karate]

Right, and like I said, If you are a public figure who wants to get work on a TV station, but you also want to write tweets to trigger the libs, then get a lawyer to write in some clauses in your contract that recognize this.

Then watch how quickly the “TV station” laughs in your face and doesn’t hire you because it doesn’t work like that. At all.

I'm not suggesting it was sexist. That said, the arguments you used are really, really bad ones. I could ask how many women are gainfully employed in Japan? Millions. Obviously no sexism here then!

You’re right. When you wildly misrepresent my argument, it does look really bad.

Also, but how many conservative women work there?

The only thing I know about the other women on the show is that they’ve somehow managed to do their jobs without offending their coworkers and employers by behaving like obnoxious jerks.

 

[johnny karate]

The seasons are short, and unless I'm missing someone, only Mando and Grogu appear in even a majority of episodes.
"Guest Star" is also more a technical term than anything. Edward Herriman was billed as a guest Star in the credits of Gilmore girls and he was in the vast majority of episodes.

As I understand it "Guest Star" is more a union designation for how much you get paid than anything else.

That is correct. And it also sets contract standards, as in, you don’t have a long term one. You’re basically just a well-paid day-player. Not sure how the Edward Herrmann situation worked.

 

[johnny karate]

It's less applicable to Gunn, too, because he was specifically targeted by right-wingers as revenge for making a joke about Trump's weight, and because Disney hired him in the first place because of his unique voice - which includes the edgy things he says.

But the point is that if a company is seen to bow to public pressure, then the best way to counter that is to exert pressure yourself. It certainly seems like a better strategy than moaning on an obscure and outdated message board that the world has now lost it's only Badass Woman^TM.

And it should be noted that in terms of “cancel culture”, the market is self-correcting. Upon being fired from Disney, Gunn was promptly snapped up by Warner Bros, before being re-hired by Disney. The only thing “canceling” did to James Gunn was get him another job and a lot more money.

 

[Cavemonster]

That is correct. And it also sets contract standards, as in, you don’t have a long term one. You’re basically just a well-paid day-player. Not sure how the Edward Herrmann situation worked.

I think my general point is that Burr wasn't in such a distinctly different category that he would be free from scrutiny.

He's known to be "offensive" in his own way, but I highly suspect that if he made the same Twitter posts that lost his coworker her job, he would not be a future part of the series either, and Disney likely would have made a similar announcement.

It's a little different in that there was more indication (but nothing concretly confirmed AFAIK) that her character had a future planned. But then again, Burr's performance was among the more popular things last season and I've never seen anyone outside of this thread particularly excited about her character. I found her distractingly wooden from the first appearance and was surprised she came back.

 

[johnny karate]

I think my general point is that Burr wasn't in such a distinctly different category that he would be free from scrutiny.

He's known to be "offensive" in his own way, but I highly suspect that if he made the same Twitter posts that lost his coworker her job, he would not be a future part of the series either, and Disney likely would have made a similar announcement.

It's a little different in that there was more indication (but nothing concretly confirmed AFAIK) that her character had a future planned. But then again, Burr's performance was among the more popular things last season and I've never seen anyone outside of this thread particularly excited about her character. I found her distractingly wooden from the first appearance and was surprised she came back.

Well, again, Burr not being a series regular means he’s not an integral part of the show’s promotion. He doesn’t do press junkets or promotional events. In short, he’s not tied to the brand the way a series regular is. It’s a different standard and level of expectation.