[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[LondonJohn]

Here is their definition of woman:
"One of two binary categories of gender, typically associated with feminine behaviors and constructs."

I seem to recall getting a fair bit of pushback for suggesting a similar definition awhile back.

I don't recall much pushback against those specific words of yours. I suppose that, if anything, I'd take a degree of issue with your definition of girls/women as "individuals generally expected to perform femininity", since this implies an externality - others' observations - rather than what it actually is, which is an internalised sense of identity.


By the way, and certainly not a propos your post above, I must say I've been heartily enjoying catching up with the thread - particularly all the clever, various and hilarious posts mocking, misunderstanding, misrepresenting, denying gender dysphoria and transgender identity. Keep it up everyone!

 

[Rolfe]

We aim to please.

 

[Louden Wilde]

For scientific and medical purposes, the ability to become pregnant is a distinction. But for all other matters, I don't see biology as that relevant when it comes to sex.

Like the census discussion earlier, I would put my sex as female, as I always do when I am given the option. Likewise a transgender man would put male.

Reproduction is literally the only reason sex evolved and continues to exist.

I suspect not distinguishing properly between female and male will cost you support.

 

[Boudicca90]

Do you understand that your personal beliefs, and what is important to you, doesn't dictate that anyone else has to have the same view?



Just because something is not important to you doesn't mean that it's unimportant across the board.



Consider: Gender identity just isn't important to me. It's just not a big deal, it's irrelevant.



I assume that the lack of importance to me doesn't make it unimportant across the board, and shouldn't in any way indicate that it should be unimportant to you.

You've made it quite clear you don't care about gender identity. Likewise, biological sex just isn't important to me. I am a woman and female regardless of what people see me as based on how I was born.

Ultimately it's about what society as a whole considers more important, not any individual person.

 

[theprestige]

Ovarians vs. Testiculators?

Nah. That just opens the door to silliness like "boyvaries" and "girlsticles". We already have perfectly good words for this.

Which is why TRA extremists are hell bent on destroying them. Boudicca is literally trying to Orwell us into submission on this

 

[Collin237]

In a strange way I think Collin has a point. Not as a 'conspiracy', but I think that the current toxic trans activism is a type of cult, not all of the key players are transgender, and they are using people who are transgender for their own interests. Bret Weinstein said something similar in one of the videos I linked to a while back - that very few transgender people he knew were actually interested in 're-writing the rules of logic' or 'telling biologists what to think' (as TRAs are). Rather, transgender people are being used as an excuse for bullying and to gain the power to hard code preferred ideologies into society.

Finally someone understands what I've been saying!

 

[Thermal]

Being able to become pregnant doesn't automatically mean they are female.

And we've officially jumped the shark. Anyone wondering if this was a serious discussion should read the above carefully.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd take a degree of issue with your definition of girls/women as "individuals generally expected to perform femininity", since this implies an externality - others' observations - rather than what it actually is, which is an internalised sense of identity.

This is not what it says in the definition of "woman" excerpted from the link you posted.

You might should have another look.

Boudicca is literally trying to Orwell us into submission on this

I used to think the goal was to make observable sex characteristics (e.g. being pregnant) much less important than gender identity (i.e. one's subjective sense of being a man) but now I'm admittedly a bit confused as to the endgame here.

 

[theprestige]

Finally someone understands what I've been saying!

I think Elaediths understanding is as wrong as yours.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Rolfes theory of ideological capture by the autogynephiliacs is probably a lot closer to the truth.

 

[Collin237]

You're correct - which is why so many of us object to the mantra "Transwomen are Women". It's an ideological premise, without scientific support, which seeks to undermine our very understanding of reality.

If the slogan were "Transwomen ought to be treated as Women" you'd see a fair bit less objection on that.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes exactly, not a single expert being quoted in LJ's link - as opposed to my earlier link which does quote several clinical researchers.

Sorry? Your "several clinical researchers" count for more in terms of authority and credibility than the sum of the links I posted (which, in case you forgot, includes the American Medical Association's Journal of Ethics, the Canadian Government Institutes of Health Research, Stamford Medical Research Institute, and a paper authored by 18 leading clinical professors and published in one of the bibles of medical research and policy, The Lancet)?

Let's try this: you tell me precisely which *expert* you're looking for?


(I mean, I realise full well that what's going on here is a disingenuous gambit which has little to do with debating in good faith, but there's no harm in going through the motions for the sake of..... something or other....)

 

[LondonJohn]

In typical woo fashion, when pressed on a point just try to dazzle the audience by throwing out tons of links which don't even address the point.

Yes. You've got me bang to rights. That's exactly what I was doing. Full marks to you for spotting it and pointing it out. After all, it's extremely difficult to have a reasonable and rational debate when one (or more) of the participants is hell-bent on debating in bad faith. Isn't it?

 

[LondonJohn]

It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I will try to take your feelings into account. However, my sense of humor is what it is. I won't suppress it or deny it just because it makes other people uncomfortable.

I agree. For example, I absolutely love telling jokes mocking disabled people and gay people, either in the office* or at parties**.


* Disgracefully, my workplace's HR department has now issued me with a final written warning. They seem shockingly impervious to me informing them that my sense of humour is what it is, and I won't suppress or deny it just because it makes other people uncomfortable.

** Strangely, now I think about it, I haven't been invited to any parties since around 2015

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Then what does?

Define female in a meaningful way that isn't pure, arbitrary self-determination.

Is something that can only be self-determined inherently arbitrary?

I mean, how can you tell that someone is heterosexual vs homosexual beyond just taking their word that their self-determination is real?

 

[theprestige]

Is something that can only be self-determined inherently arbitrary?

I mean, how can you tell that someone is heterosexual vs homosexual beyond just taking their word that their self-determination is real?

Genes, gametes, and SRY expression can't be self determined. And we have words for that: Male and Female.

Also, your analogy to sexual preference fails. As analogies do.

 

[LondonJohn]

Transgender ideology leaving a corrosive impact on society

Interesting article. Boudicca and his like are gloating and confident at the moment, but this isn't going to last any more than previous societal delusions have lasted.

Firstly, I'd say that your attribution of the (pejorative) adjective "gloating" is misplaced, though of course its use is pretty telling. In fact, I'd say that for most moderate advocates of transgender rights, it's more a sense of satisfaction and righteousness. Sort of like the way most moderate gay rights advocates felt when gay rights were more properly recognised and legislated.

And secondly, you're aware (I hope) that Civitas - the think tank which authored the paper you linked to - is an unrepresentative right-wing operation which also opposes legislation to tackle climate change and related matters (including legislation to encourage/mandate renewable energy)? I'm guessing that the anti-trans lobby has a 24/7 search going on for any and all publications which support their position....?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Genes, gametes, and SRY expression can't be self determined. And we have words for that: Male and Female.

Also, your analogy to sexual preference fails. As analogies do.

Perception of one's own gender identity is absolutely a matter of self-determination.

 

[Collin237]

I think Elaediths understanding is as wrong as yours.

If I had to guess, I'd say that Rolfes theory of ideological capture by the autogynephiliacs is probably a lot closer to the truth.

That's practically a textbook case of a paranoia meme.

 

[theprestige]

Perception of one's own gender identity is absolutely a matter of self-determination.

Honestly I'm just happy that we agree that gender is subjective and sex is objective. Hopefully we can reason together towards some practical public policy on this basis. Hopefully without any name-calling.

 

[theprestige]

That's practically a textbook case of a paranoia meme.

... Says the guy who believes that all trans rights activism is an anti trans false flag operation.