[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Sherkeu]

In this case, though, it doesn't matter. Even if every single one of them was 100% guaranteed to persist, it wouldn't make letting them compete against girls fair.

Yeah. Absolutely true for the older kids. I was thinking more of younger children- pre puberty, needing to be affirmed as girls.

My kid wasn't on team that was single sex until nearly 12 when she started volleyball...and then Covid shut all of it down. Before that, there could be any type of boy/girl mix within an age range. Sometimes there was one boy in her gymnastic class, and sometimes she was the only girl on the bball team. But all were allowed to participate. There are a lot of options for young kids of any gender or sex to get into sports that are gender neutral.

After 12yrs, you find less co-ed teams because the physical differences are getting larger. By 13 or 14, the boys (males) will handily trounce the girls (females), all else being equal.

It is such an obvious, factual, observable thing that I feel like if I say the ocean is wet, someone might counter with some odd notion of high salinity making that not always true in some weird situation of air pressure, on mars. or something.

 

[d4m10n]

You say that as if kids experimenting with gender expression, however valid and sincere, is a permanent condition. Most of the time it isn't.

Most of the time it is, despite your propaganda about desisters.

The article you linked from Zinnia Jones links to an article which says "Across all studies, the persistence rate of GD has been approximately 16%" and goes on to say that "Studies encompassing much longer follow-up periods might show a prevalence higher than 16% if individuals with persistence-after-interruption are included." That said, even if 16% doubled to 32%, Sherkeu would still be correct here. What (if anything) have you read which made you believe 16% will come to exceed 50%?

 

[theprestige]

No one is making fun of you. Some find the spin on the claim you are making to be preposterous, and are riffing on that.

Reminds me of the old joke:

Q. How many third-wave feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

 

[Boudicca90]

The article you linked from Zinnia Jones links to an article which says "Across all studies, the persistence rate of GD has been approximately 16%" and goes on to say that "Studies encompassing much longer follow-up periods might show a prevalence higher than 16% if individuals with persistence-after-interruption are included." That said, even if 16% doubled to 32%, Sherkeu would still be correct here. What (if anything) have you read which made you believe 16% will come to exceed 50%?

Fair enough, I was wrong to say most.

But the point of the article stands that the current studies (and therefore the 16% figure) are flawed due to relying on outdated standards.

More accurately, none of us knows the true figure, but I see it as irrelevant since anyone who experiences incongruence with their assigned gender should have the option of treatment.

(And I think I turned off the sig. I didn't know it was an option)

 

[Boudicca90]

Reminds me of the old joke:



Q. How many third-wave feminists does it take to change a light bulb?



A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY!

I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.

 

[cullennz]

Yeah. Absolutely true for the older kids. I was thinking more of younger children- pre puberty, needing to be affirmed as girls.

My kid wasn't on team that was single sex until nearly 12 when she started volleyball...and then Covid shut all of it down. Before that, there could be any type of boy/girl mix within an age range. Sometimes there was one boy in her gymnastic class, and sometimes she was the only girl on the bball team. But all were allowed to participate. There are a lot of options for young kids of any gender or sex to get into sports that are gender neutral.

After 12yrs, you find less co-ed teams because the physical differences are getting larger. By 13 or 14, the boys (males) will handily trounce the girls (females), all else being equal.

It is such an obvious, factual, observable thing that I feel like if I say the ocean is wet, someone might counter with some odd notion of high salinity making that not always true in some weird situation of air pressure, on mars. or something.

It is probably a rugby world rule, but here there can be mixed teams till they turn 12.

Mind you there is no tackling till the Under 8s and it can also be divided by weight when that kicks in.

Like if a kid is 10 or whatever and weighs about twice as much as everyone else, they have to play in a older age group.

Mind you I think they can sometimes give compensation to the odd girl to play a couple of grades higher for a season or two in small towns if there aren't enough girls to make a team etc.

But even then the girl needs to have medical proof she is structurely safe enough to not get broken.

 

[Ziggurat]

Fair enough, I was wrong to say most.

But the point of the article stands that the current studies (and therefore the 16% figure) are flawed due to relying on outdated standards.

The figures aren't actually relevant to what we were just discussing. A transgirl with no medical intervention who is 100% not going to detransition should still not be competing against biological girls in sports post-puberty. The physical discrepancy is just too large.

 

[Meadmaker]

The figures aren't actually relevant to what we were just discussing. A transgirl with no medical intervention who is 100% not going to detransition should still not be competing against biological girls in sports post-puberty. The physical discrepancy is just too large.

I think it came up because Boudicca was emphasizing how important it was to affirm the identity of the transpeople. One of the counterarguments was that maybe it wasn't all that important to affirm their identity when an awful lot of them, 5 out of 6 if you believe d4m1on's reference, are going to go back to their birth gender anyway. The other counterargument is the much more common observation that the one with the penis is going to have a gigantic advantage if competing against the girls

Serious question, Boudicca. If a 16 year old identified as a transboy, i.e. using boys' bathrooms and such while at school, and he wanted to play sports, would you force him to play in the boys' division, or would you allow him to choose between the two leagues?


(For me, I would allow the choice in most cases. In fact, I can't think of any situation where I wouldn't allow it, but someone might be able to come up with one.)

 

[theprestige]

I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.

It's unfortunate that you feel that way. I will try to take your feelings into account. However, my sense of humor is what it is. I won't suppress it or deny it just because it makes other people uncomfortable.

 

[Ron Obvious]

I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.

For a person who continually tells biological women to suck it up if they don't like it, you seem remarkably thin-skinned.

 

[theprestige]

Yep! Liberals and conservatives, united against us!

It just warms my heart. : rolleyes :

Hey, at least you agree with the rest of us about Collin's conspiracy theories.

 

[theprestige]

For a person who continually tells biological women to suck it up if they don't like it, you seem remarkably thin-skinned.

Check your privilege. Us rich old white hetero cismales are playing life on easy mode. We can afford to shrug off all the slings and arrows of outrageous activism. To us much of life is a joke, or a game. To others, it's deadly serious. It must be emotionally draining to have everything and everyone in life working against you all the time, and making fun of your situation like it ain't no thing. Even a main battle tank will suffer a hull breach if you hit the front armor enough times.

 

[Boudicca90]

Serious question, Boudicca. If a 16 year old identified as a transboy, i.e. using boys' bathrooms and such while at school, and he wanted to play sports, would you force him to play in the boys' division, or would you allow him to choose between the two leagues?


(For me, I would allow the choice in most cases. In fact, I can't think of any situation where I wouldn't allow it, but someone might be able to come up with one.)

Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.

 

[Boudicca90]

Check your privilege. Us rich old white hetero cismales are playing life on easy mode. We can afford to shrug off all the slings and arrows of outrageous activism. To us much of life is a joke, or a game. To others, it's deadly serious. It must be emotionally draining to have everything and everyone in life working against you all the time, and making fun of your situation like it ain't no thing. Even a main battle tank will suffer a hull breach if you hit the front armor enough times.

Thank you, I know I can take things a little too personally sometimes.

It's just like you said, and it's hard for me to be objective and impartial when it comes to issues that do affect me and my friends so much. And with this current legal backlash against our rights all across the country, it's been frustrating.

 

[Thermal]

Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.

Kind of sounds like what you actually are or identifies as doesn't matter, and you just pick based on other criteria?

 

[Meadmaker]

Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.

Ok. Cis-people have to play in the division corresponding to their sex, trans people have a choice.

I thought of one situation where I would certainly not allow the transboy a choice. If on a male hormone regimen, I would say they have to play in the boys' if they play at all.


Most of us will remember this incident, but some people might not, so I'll bring up a fairly famous case of this. In Texas they passed some kind of old-fashioned rules. Everyone has to stay in their sex' division, regardless of current gender identification. Also, no cross-sex wrestling. i.e. a girl can't wrestle against a boy.

And of course, no performance enhancing drugs. However, if they were prescribed by a doctor for a valid medical condition, that rule was waived, so one year a transboy who was pretty bulked up from male hormones won the Texas state girls' wrestling championship.

Of course, my question, and answer, only applied to transboys.

 

[cullennz]

Hmm, I actually didn't consider the situation of what if someone did want to play in the division/league of their original gender/sex.

I suppose I would be okay with it assuming it was of their own free will. So yeah, for both trans boys and girls if they are fine with it, I am.

So you are asking for trans people to have more rights and privileges than biological females and males, rather than equal rights?

 

[cullennz]

Good to see some are concentrating on the important trans issues.

https://www.wavy.com/news/health/so...or-human-milk-in-effort-to-be-more-inclusive/

Some move to change ‘breast’ milk to ‘chest’ or ‘human’ milk in effort to be more inclusive

There is a new push by some health care professionals to change the term “breast milk” to “chest milk.”

In the United Kingdom, one hospital made international headlines for changing the term “breast milk” to “human milk.” It’s an effort to be more inclusive to transgender and non-binary parents.

Illinois mother Jill Aspinwall says she wanted to provide the best nutrients possible for her three children, but admits she struggled to breastfeed and was often shamed for doing so.

“I’ve had dirty looks. I’ve had comments and I’m just letting it go,” said Aspinwall. “I am feeding my baby and providing the best nutrition possible. Some people were intolerant to breastfeeding in public — especially not covering up. But once a baby is a few months old they bat off that blanket and they want to see what’s going on.”

After her first experience with nursing her daughter, she decided to help others. So she became an internationally board-certified lactation consultant in 2015. Then she opened her own lactation service, “After Hours Breastfeeding Support.”

Now she teaches parents how to naturally feed their child. Recently, Aspinwall implemented terminology changes at her practice.

“I think that we can speak to people in general terms until we get to know that client individually and then when we know what pronouns they would like to use and to be addressed as then we can address them as such,” said Aspinwall.

She says she started to use the terms chest milk or human milk, instead of the traditional term. She says it’s a way to create a more comfortable atmosphere for transgender parents as well as non-binary parents — who do not identify with any gender...……..

 

[smartcooky]

But they are males, with male biology. And the entire justification for sports segregation is biology, NOT gender identification.

THIS

(Holy Crap Zig... something we agree on!!)

The whole reason for segregating male sport from female sport is because not doing so creates lop-sided, unfair contests and in the case of some sports, creates actual physical danger for the female participants, for example, I shudder to think what would happen to Black Ferns fullback Selica Winiata (5ft 1in, 127lb) if she was crash-tackled by All Black winger Jordie Barrett (6ft 5in, 209 lb).

 

[Collin237]

Good to see some are concentrating on the important trans issues.

https://www.wavy.com/news/health/so...or-human-milk-in-effort-to-be-more-inclusive/

I've always thought "human milk" is the sensible term. Every female mammal has a body section that could be called a breast -- except, ironically, a cow!