[ED] Discussion: Trans Women Are not Women (Part 6)

[Emily's Cat]

As I said before, I only say that for sports women/girls who use their transphobia as an excuse for why they lost.

Like the girls who lost to Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller, and instead of losing gracefully, are trying to infringe on their rights to compete with their own gender/sex. And the bigots in this case (Selina Soule, Alanna Smith and Chelsea Mitchell) have partnered up with known hate group Alliance Defending Freedom in trying to discriminate against us.

I have no sympathy for people like that.

Yes, we're well aware that you have no sympathy for women and girls who don't like seeing their hard work washed away in order to appease the feelings of prostate-owners.

 

[Collin237]

And the gender/sex distinction is largely irrelevant.

You're slipping out of character. That's a line from the other side's script.

 

[Elaedith]

One of his sources did provide it, though.

One also says 'Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities'.

 

[Emily's Cat]

They didn't lose to men, they lost to women. Stop trying to muddy the conversation.

Sports women who lose to actual men aren't what we are talking about here, like the Williams sisters losing to a man. That's not the issue here and accusations of "TERF" would make no sense.

Holy cow. It's EXACTLY the same. The Williams sisters lost to a human with a penis and small motile gametes, who had the physiological benefit of testosterone and a male physique.

All of the other females who keep losing to transwoman are losing for the EXACT SAME REASON - they're competitors are MALE.

They aren't competing against the transgirl's "internal sense of self". They're competing against a male-bodied competitor.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, there are differences between cisgender women and transgender women, but we are both subcategories of women. But those differences (like chromosomes and reproductive ability) don't mean much in terms of us both being considered women.

It doesn't make a difference to you. You don't care about biology. It does make a difference to female athletes, and to many other females. And for a great many females, biology makes a big ******* difference.

 

[d4m10n]

One also says 'Gender interacts with sex, the biological and physical characteristics that define women, men, and those with intersex identities'.

Not seeing that one, but I'd've thought the relevant trichotomy of "biological and physical characteristics" is female/male/intersex.

 

[Elaedith]

Not seeing that one, but I'd've thought the relevant trichotomy of "biological and physical characteristics" is female/male/intersex.

I expect they are a bit behind keeping in step with the latest gender fashions.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh? Campaigning "under the radar" like comic-book Russian spies? Advocating surgery on little kids like a Hollywood horror-movie mad scientist?

I've got their theatrics sussed, and I suspect you do too.

Hold on, I need another bag of popcorn to watch this discussion. The Collin vs Boudicca showdown on whether the trans advocacy groups are actually pro-trans or anti-trans is going to be epic.

 

[Collin237]

And the bigots in this case (Selina Soule, Alanna Smith and Chelsea Mitchell) have partnered up with known hate group Alliance Defending Freedom in trying to discriminate against us.

How do you know that? Were you involved in the case?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Seems like a good time to point out that the outcome of a middle school baseball game is not actually that important and it's much more about teaching the kids both athletic and general social skills than it is about competition for competition's sake.

We aren't talking the Olympics here. Including trans students in school sports is an important consideration. Excluding trans kids from school sports because of "fairness" concerns seems to be missing the point entirely of school sports.

I swear it's like you don't even know about college scholarships at all. But okay, you do you. It's far more important that transgirls get to fell good about themselves by beating females, instead of feeling bad about their mediocre skills by losing to males.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What do you think losing at every sporting competition at school will teach these girls? What will it do to their self esteem?

Haven't you gotten the message yet? That's not important.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I just don't find any of those "I identify as a..." jokes to be funny. They just serve to demean trans people.

As opposed to calling the legitimate concerns of females delusional, paranoid, and hysterical, and insisting that the things that are actually really already happening that are actually really already harming females are just "not important".

Yeah, that's not demeaning to females at all.

 

[Elaedith]

Hold on, I need another bag of popcorn to watch this discussion. The Collin vs Boudicca showdown on whether the trans advocacy groups are actually pro-trans or anti-trans is going to be epic.

In a strange way I think Collin has a point. Not as a 'conspiracy', but I think that the current toxic trans activism is a type of cult, not all of the key players are transgender, and they are using people who are transgender for their own interests. Bret Weinstein said something similar in one of the videos I linked to a while back - that very few transgender people he knew were actually interested in 're-writing the rules of logic' or 'telling biologists what to think' (as TRAs are). Rather, transgender people are being used as an excuse for bullying and to gain the power to hard code preferred ideologies into society.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, Theresa May too, after conveniently ditching all the European leaders who could've broken up the racket.

Unfortunately for your side, half the people on this thread are from the US, where Donald Trump was too stupid to pull off a similar plan, and the Jeff Bezos gang kept our freedom of speech alive, and here we are.

I... don't... have... words...

 

[Emily's Cat]

Unfortunately the erasure of women's rights seems to be the one area where the Scottish government is not too chicken to do the opposite from Westminster. Try to save more lives by not following Johnson's lethal "strategies"? Oh no we can't do that we must have four-nations agreement. Women want to retain their rights in the same way as women in England are being treated? No, get back in your box you bigot.

And those transphobic rape victims wanting to have an examiner of their own sex... well, that just makes Scotland unsafe for transpeople!!!11eleventyone!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Every opinion on trans rights except yours is bigoted?

Collin, take note of this perspective, and bear it in mind when you evaluate the behavior and approaches of trans advocacy groups.

They're starting from the same premise - that any disagreement with their beliefs is evidence of bigotry and hatred. View the materials and the approaches through that lens, and consider whether or not they're anti-trans in intent, or whether they're just... well... unable to consider any view other than their own.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Given the title of this thread is "Trans women are not women", I would say it's impossible to have a discussion on this without using words relating to sex or gender.

My position has always been clear, trans women are women/female and trans men are men/male. And the gender/sex distinction is largely irrelevant.

For that position to mean anything you simply have to be to refer to it in a way that isn't completely self-referential.

I know what my point is and I can describe it within the framework I've laid out.

I know what Rolfe and Emily's point is and I can describe it within the framework I've laid.

Hell I even know what the version of transgenderism that all the "No I totally support the trans people and am totally on their side" think the trans position is in those terms.

I cannot with you. And if you can't step outside the language then I must conclude your argument is nothing but playing with the language.

You can tell me what you think, but you can't tell me what it actually means and when pressed you just get angry and call everyone a transphobe and probably run of to Tumblr to talk about the hate crime you just survived.

 

[Rolfe]

Possibly not - I don't know what guidance stated in the previous census. It stands out because the guidance for the question on sex contrasts with what is stated under gender identity, where sex registered at birth is explicitly mentioned (obviously out of necessity). The introduction of the separate question on gender identity would have been a good opportunity to clarify the distinction and to emphasise that biological sex doesn't actually change. Legal sex (if changed from birth sex) is what corresponds to gender identity since it is effectively changed to match this (a legal fiction).

Do they? They can answer the question on sex with their legal sex if this was changed from sex registered at birth, and the gender identity question is optional.

They apparently backed down on spelling out that the sex question was to be answered with the sex registered at birth in order to avoid a boycott by trans activists whose liddle feelz would be all butthurt.

Let's see how many women boycott it the way it is now. Or indeed people in general who find the anti-science guidelines offensive.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's only an anti-skeptical ideology when it's a pre-determined IS.

A pre-determined OUGHT can simply be a moral standpoint.

You're correct - which is why so many of us object to the mantra "Transwomen are Women". It's an ideological premise, without scientific support, which seeks to undermine our very understanding of reality.

If the slogan were "Transwomen ought to be treated as Women" you'd see a fair bit less objection on that.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And that is one way cisgender and transgender women differ (at least for now, who knows how far medical science will progress), but it is not exclusive to women either, since transgender men can become pregnant as well.

Do you know why transmen can become pregnant? Because they are FEMALE and are NOT MALE. And because sex actually is quite important.