Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[caveman1917]

I am assuming, based on Yaniv's track record, that she will fail once again. I'm not familiar with the case or her claims, nor do I think it merits much attention unless she is successful.

Apparently this is the policy being fought:

At the time, Canada Galaxy Pageants had a formal policy of accepting genetic females as contestants, but would still accept transgender females who had fully transitioned and no longer had male genitals. This policy was noted in all paperwork and on the website. The pageant’s policy has since been revised to include ‘genetic females and fully transitioned.'

On the grounds that it excludes non-fully transitioned transwomen. I find it odd that you think the case doesn't merit much attention given that it is pretty much exactly what your and Boudicca's position has been in the thread, I'd have expected you two to be rallying to the claimant's support.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I never denied it was a crime, I simply said the pressure Vaniv was able to bring on the women involved from the barbed wire baseball bat brigade is unique.

I'm not sure "well, you can just go to the police" is a great comfort to anyone, never mind a recent immigrant who might feel contacting the authorities (who apparently support Vaniv) might be counter productive

yes, the cops suck and they often don't treat crimes seriously when it impacts populations they don't care about. Probably should do something about these cops that are openly contemptuous of the public they allegedly serve, but that's a different matter. Feel free to join me in other threads trash-talking the cops.

I'm not sure where you get the notion that the authorities are the friend of Yaniv. She's been convicted of crimes based on her behavior. She was recently charged in Dec 2020 for another instance of threatening violence.

She's on pace to slowly but surely destroy herself.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Bear in mind I'm less of the "will yours accept an apology from mine?" sort, and more of the "a surgeon's attendance will be purely optional" sort.

Works for me...

 

[Manger Douse]

yes, the cops suck and they often don't treat crimes seriously. Such is life.



I'm not sure where you get the notion that the authorities are the friend of Yaniv. She's been convicted of crimes based on her behavior. She was recently charged in Dec 2020 for another instance of threatening violence.



She's on pace to slowly but surely destroy herself.

The reason why Vanvi was able to do this in the first place was because of a change in the law from the *authorities*

Do you accept that because Vaniv can bring the barbed wire baseball bat brigade down on the women involved is a unique threat compared to the usual vexations litigants?

 

[Boudicca90]

Apparently this is the policy being fought:


On the grounds that it excludes non-fully transitioned transwomen. I find it odd that you think the case doesn't merit much attention given that it is pretty much exactly what your and Boudicca's position has been in the thread, I'd have expected you two to be rallying to the claimant's support.

As much as I hate to side with her, in this case I support her (even though it is just another way for her to grab attention). Pre-op or non-op trans people shouldn't be discriminated against.

If I wanted to join a beauty pageant like that, I should be able to, regardless of what genitals I have. In my case I know I don't have the best looking body out there and so I wouldn't attempt it, but still.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Many other groups of people have historically faced opression and discrimination. We don't make seperate restrooms for all of them.Some of them. I am sure that if you look hard enough, you can also find quotes from Jim Crow era Black people saying they like having "black-only protected' spaces. Just because some have internalised their own oppression is not sufficient justification for continuing segregation.

As a person who is in favour of equal rights, I am glad that such an abhorrent concept is not actually implemented where I live.

Again, the racial analogy is terrible. Races are a transient construct - the ones we now think of in the US (for example) may be largely mixed in a few hundred years. What other groups have been oppressed based on their sex and reproductive capacity that you would say are analogous?

Mammalian females bear the brunt of reproductive costs - and will continue to do so. That you are against ANY female-based rights suggests a profound lack of appreciation/ understanding for the underlying biology (and/or misogyny, of course). Arguably worse, it suggests that you value the feelings of a very small number of people over the safety of ~50% of the population.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Apparently this is the policy being fought:


On the grounds that it excludes non-fully transitioned transwomen. I find it odd that you think the case doesn't merit much attention given that it is pretty much exactly what your and Boudicca's position has been in the thread, I'd have expected you two to be rallying to the claimant's support.

Mostly because I don't see any reputable reporting on the matter, just the usual reactionary doom-saying running stories with very little info beyond "let's all gawk at this weirdo".

I'm not seeing any real legal analysis to indicate whether or not she will be successful, and given her history of meritless lawsuits, I see no reason to care unless she wins.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Do you accept that because Vaniv can bring the barbed wire baseball bat brigade down on the women involved is a unique threat compared to the usual vexations litigants?

I have no idea what you mean by this, google pulls a blank, and I have very little trust that you will present whatever facts of this matter truthfully.

 

[Olmstead]

Should men be barred from certain women's shelters?

Should pre-op transwomen be barred from certain women's shelters?


I feel like the two answers should match, but maybe someone here can justify a "Yes" on the first and a "No" on the second.

 

[Aber]

That's what you don't seem to understand about us, an effeminate man isn't a woman and I am not a man.

That is what you want; we don't have to agree with you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We will keep men out the same way we always have, nothing needs to fundamentally change there.

And considering Eddie Izzard's realization of her gender identity, I don't see why not.

The way we always have is to keep out people who have the physical attributes of being male - larger brow ridge, more angular eye sockets, broad shoulders relative to hips, straight waist, large feet & hands, no breasts, facial hair, heavier body hair, angular jaw and chin, higher degree of muscularity, etc.

By the "way it's always been done", Eddie Izzard would not be allowed in at all, because he is unquestionably male in morphology. Seani, mentioned earlier, would also not be allowed. Nor would a whole lot of self-declared transwomen.

So I'll try again: How do you and I both agree on who is allowed in, and on what basis? How do we allow transwomen in while excluding cismen who claim to be gender-nonconforming transwomen?

 

[Manger Douse]

I have no idea what you mean by this, google pulls a blank, and I have very little trust that you will present whatever facts of this matter truthfully.

I mean that rape threats with barbed wire baseball bat are a tool in the arsenal against TERFS. TERFS who discriminate against transwomen like these beauticians did

 

[Boudicca90]

The way we always have is to keep out people who have the physical attributes of being male - larger brow ridge, more angular eye sockets, broad shoulders relative to hips, straight waist, large feet & hands, no breasts, facial hair, heavier body hair, angular jaw and chin, higher degree of muscularity, etc.

By the "way it's always been done", Eddie Izzard would not be allowed in at all, because he is unquestionably male in morphology. Seani, mentioned earlier, would also not be allowed. Nor would a whole lot of self-declared transwomen.

So I'll try again: How do you and I both agree on who is allowed in, and on what basis? How do we allow transwomen in while excluding cismen who claim to be gender-nonconforming transwomen?

Unquestioningly male according to you, I'm not a biological and gender essentialist however and I don't subscribe to the idea that physical features indicate gender.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There is only one way this guy can be free. Somewhere in Canada, there is a law firm protecting him. I think all of you who made fun of my phrase "bricks and mortar" owe me an apology.

Nobody made fun of your brick and lobby bit.

We did, however, have some shared humor by sharing a picture of an actual physical hotel "lobby". That is having fun with a pun, not mocking you in any way.

Honestly, I don't know about a tangible physical location. Stonewall has physical locations in the UK, I know. But nowadays a lot of stuff is done virtually without a need for a physical location. That said, there ARE actual organizations involved. Including IGLYO.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yaniv and the TRA lobby agree on the rights for the most part. The right to a 'female' scrotum wax from immigrant women was, I think, a bridge too far perhaps and why it got the most attention for how ridiculous it was....way more attention than his pervy texts with underage girls asking about how he might see them naked in a bathroom or locker room.

For example, both the TRA and Yaniv against locker room privacy restrictions that could the transgirls/women feel like they had to take additional precautions that the females did not. Same hill, but different reasons for climbing it.

Yaniv is so shameless in his response:

[qimg]https://www.womenarehuman.com/wp-content/uploads/57328135_2154337484686132_4977131209252405248_n.jpg[/qimg]

Oh FFS. They've legalized peeping toms.

 

[Earthborn]

and that they had all had gender reassignment surgery. Because of those assumptions, we were willing to accept them and help protect them.

People assumed that sex reassignment surgery was available to transsexuals who did not fully live at least 1.5 years in the opposite gender role? And they assumed that such surgery has such a high priority to healthcare systems that there were no waiting lists?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm with Collin on this one. This Yaniv person is just accross the board awful and having to hear about these antics in the middle of a serious discussion is like having someone discover and post PETA 'having pets is exactly like the Holocaust' comics and examples of PETA's disgusting treatment of actual animals, in an animal welfare thread.

I don't care if PETA thinks it's a real animal welfare org and it's a shame it has enough support from whoever the hell is supporting it that it still gets to be on the planet doing its ridicuous thing.

Same with Yaniv.

I think the difference here is that while Yaniv is clearly a predator... the various lobbies SUPPORT the same policies that he is after.

Remember that when Yaniv brought the waxing issue to the Tribunal, the Trans Lobby in Canada was 100% fully supportive of it, and cast those women as transphobic bigots violating Yaniv's rights. It was only AFTER there was enough public outcry about his detestable treatment of those women that they became silent on the issue. But they still hold the inherent position that refusal to provide such services to a transgender person with a penis is transphobic.

Yaniv is an extremist in behavior only. The policy positions from which he argues are not extremist, and are the positions held by the lobbies.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I mean that rape threats with barbed wire baseball bat are a tool in the arsenal against TERFS. TERFS who discriminate against transwomen like these beauticians did

That really didn't clarify things at all.

 

[theprestige]

Unquestioningly male according to you, I'm not a biological and gender essentialist however and I don't subscribe to the idea that physical features indicate gender.

In terms of public policy regulations, what do you think should indicate gender?

Do you think it's sex? Obviously not.

Do you think it's an actual medical transition? Obviously not.*

Do you think it's conformity to gender stereotypes in society? It doesn't seem like it.

Do you think it's medical diagnosis of a recognized mental condition? It doesn't seem like it.

Do you think it's self-ID, and self-ID alone? That does seem to be your position.

So.

How do you propose we implement self-ID as public policy, in such a way that we can safeguard your right to be free from male persecution in women's safe spaces, but still screen out ill-intentioned males who are trying to gain access under the protection of self-ID?

---
*For the record, I don't like this one either. Transitioning is not a simple process, nor is it cheap in time and money. Not everyone who should, can. Nobody who wants one should be denied the privileges just because they can't afford to get one yet.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

In terms of public policy regulations, what do you think should indicate gender?

Do you think it's sex? Obviously not.

Do you think it's an actual medical transition? Obviously not.*

Do you think it's conformity to gender stereotypes in society? It doesn't seem like it.

Do you think it's medical diagnosis of a recognized mental condition? It doesn't seem like it.

Do you think it's self-ID, and self-ID alone? That does seem to be your position.

So.

How do you propose we implement self-ID as public policy, in such a way that we can safeguard your right to be free from male persecution in women's safe spaces, but still screen out ill-intentioned males who are trying to gain access under the protection of self-ID?

---
*For the record, I don't like this one either. Transitioning is not a simple process, nor is it cheap in time and money. Not everyone who should, can. Nobody who wants one should be denied the privileges just because they can't afford to get one yet.

Canada has self-ID now, and has for a couple years. It requires filling out some forms and having official IDs changed.

So far seems to be fine. no waves of cis-men lining up to get their peeping-tom permit from the gov. I guess we're all waiting for the pervert apocalypse that was promised by the anti-trans advocates when this was being debated years ago.