• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm not interesting in getting back into the sports debate. And Zuby is just a transphobic man trying to troll people to make a point, there is nothing more to discuss when it comes to him.

How can we tell the difference? Not so much in Zuby's case specifically, but as a general rule for public policy?

What law or regulation would you recommend, that would safeguard your rights as a transwoman, but still allow regular citizens to confidently deny the same to Zuby, without fear of a human rights lawsuit?
 
Sure, Yaniv is a legal bully and some of likely a predatory threat to her community. Her being trans is incidental to that, and there are no shortage of similar threats that aren't trans.

Nutpicking this bad actor and trying to hold all trans people guilty by association is an unreasonable response to Yaniv.

That's a straw man. As I've said before, I'm working under the assumption that Yaniv isn't actually trans at all. Furthermore, for the sake of argument we can even assume that no authentically trans person is a predator, that all trans people are completely safe. That's contradicted by the actual evidence, but again, for the sake of argument we can still assume it.

Even so, Yaniv still exposes a problem. How do you prevent sexual predators, even if they are exclusively cisgendered, from exploiting self ID in order engage in predatory behavior? That's not "nutpicking" (did you intend the pun? Please say yes), that's not trying to hold all trans people guilty by association. That's trying to keep women and girls safe from predators.
 
Can a woman at the gym block her from the woman's locker room, based on that woman's understanding of her public history?

IMO this is precisely the kind of thing we need to codify. Like the way businesses can have a little list of people they won’t accept checks from. Everyone can have a little photo of Yaniv with a Ghostbusters No over it.
 
They don't refer to it by name in your article, but the opinions you quoted are easily recognizable as Double Consciousness Theory. I don't believe in it.
I think you're way off base. The article isn't referencing any sort of philosophical mumbo jumbo, it's referencing fairly well studied psychological phenomenon.

I picked out the bits that highlighted the conclusions drawn, and their relation to this topic. The article itself contains plenty of references to psychological studies and research. It's not a particularly long article - I suggest you read it before you dismiss it by erroneously assuming it's philosophical in nature.


And I also don't trust any organization, such as WoLF, that aligns itself with the Heritage Foundation. I included that article so you wouldn't dismiss that connection as idle speculation.

This is a problem that seems to come up repeatedly - presumed guilt by association. You're not bothering to evaluate whether WoLF is reliable or not, you're just tossing it out because it has a relationship with a group you've decided you don't like.

This ends up being a problem with this topic over and over. At the moment, there is a strangle-hold on the narrative, with some very powerful interests driving ideological capture - and creating a situation in which heterodox views are treated as heretical and punished as "bigoted" - poisoning the well and effectively persecuting those who challenge the orthodox dogma.

Trans-activists organizations do "research" that confirms their bias and supports their narrative. They outright REFUSE to look at the consequences of their proposed policies, in particular the impact it has one women. Time and again, we see a misleading framing of information from polls undertaken by trans-rights groups. This gets into survey statistics and psychology, and several of them are very poorly designed. They include vague language, where the respondent's understanding of the topic is very limited... then they present the findings as if they are support for a different meaning.

One of the best examples of this is one that SuburbanTurkey has referenced repeatedly. ST references it over and over again as "most women and most people support trans rights - it says so in this survey!".

Where does the British public stand on transgender rights?

The survey he references was originally run by Pink News - which has a very clear bias. That's the very first question in the survey in the linked article. The question was "A person should be able to self-identify as a gender different to the one they were born in". To most people, this is a matter of gender presentation and how one chooses to behave. And yes - the majority of people are quite supportive of that perspective. All of us in this thread are supportive of that idea, where "gender" is the social construct that covers expression, mode of dress, behavior, presentation, etc.

Pink News, however, spun that response as being majority support for legal self-identification. Which is an entirely different topic. We've seen this conflation in this thread over and over again - the difference between a person being allowed to call themselves whatever they want, dress and act however they want... and gaining legal recognition that grants sex-specific rights and protections on the basis of their declaration alone. Those aren't the same things at all. But they get conflated frequently.

The survey in the linked article dug deeper. It went into policy positions, as well as some of the public's pre-existing assumptions about transgender people that happen to be incorrect.

As you can see, the public (and women) are generally very accepting of people presenting however they want - most people support dismantling gender roles and expectations, and this aligns with that objective. But as it moves into policy, that support drops off drastically.

The most telling element of that survey is the contrast between the "Access" section, and the bottom section. These contain the same questions... but in the "Access" section, the respondents are responding on their relatively vague notion of what "transgender" means in the real world. In the bottom section, it has been specified that the transgender persons in question have NOT had gender reassignment surgery. Note how dramatically the responses change from above.

One of the most important conclusions from this study is something that several of us have previously mentioned: the game has changed.

Prior to the last decade, there have been transsexual women in women's spaces, and women have not objected. Much of the time, it's obvious that they are male, but we engage in the polite fiction that they are women, because we believed that they had been diagnosed with a very traumatic mental health disorder, and that transitioning to live as the opposite sex was the only remaining treatment available for them, that they were suffering under extreme dysphoria... and that they had all had gender reassignment surgery. Because of those assumptions, we were willing to accept them and help protect them.

In the last decade - and especially the last five years - we've become aware of a bait and switch endeavor. We've become aware than a very, very large portion of the transgender people that we had empathy for have NOT had GRS, they are physically male with functional male genitalia. Furthermore, we're being told - quite forcible - that we are OBLIGATED to accept into our spaces and refuges ANY male person who declares themselves to be a woman... without any diagnosis, no medical treatment, and without even having dysphoria of any kind at all. Furthermore, we're being told that WE HAVE NO CHOICE and that if we don't comply, we're bigots and transphobes.

Why do I bring up this somewhat long sidebar? Because the institutional and ideological capture has created an environment where women are being silenced for questioning the transgender narrative. Women are banned from social media platforms for accurately saying that sex is binary and that males cannot become female. Women and women's groups are being de-platformed for challenging the propagandistic slogan that "Transwomen are Women". Women are being told - quite literally - that they are not allowed to bring forth discussions and policies in politics that address women's rights. Women are being told that wanting to specify the biological sex of their medical practitioner for intimate services (including rape exams) is transphobic and "literal violence" against transgender people.

The only groups who are willing to do research into the actual effect on women, and the actual real views of women and the public... are groups devoted to women's rights who are willing to stand up against the harassment and vilification that targets them: Fair Play for Women, Women are Human, Women's Place UK, 4W, etc.

But because those are women's organizations... they also get dismissed out of had by SuburbanTurkey, Archie Gemmil Goal, London John... and now you.

This is confirmation bias of the most obvious and blatant type. The only information that you will consider are those that confirm your pre-existing belief. Information coming from sources that challenge that belief are deemed to be unreliable on the surface, and are dismissed and given no consideration at all.

Frankly, that's utter ********.
 
That's a straw man. As I've said before, I'm working under the assumption that Yaniv isn't actually trans at all. Furthermore, for the sake of argument we can even assume that no authentically trans person is a predator, that all trans people are completely safe. That's contradicted by the actual evidence, but again, for the sake of argument we can still assume it.

Even so, Yaniv still exposes a problem. How do you prevent sexual predators, even if they are exclusively cisgendered, from exploiting self ID in order engage in predatory behavior? That's not "nutpicking" (did you intend the pun? Please say yes), that's not trying to hold all trans people guilty by association. That's trying to keep women and girls safe from predators.

I see no reason to disbelieve Yaniv. She, by all indications, sincerely identifies as a woman and lives as such. She has many problems with her character, but lying about her gender identity does not seem to be one of them.

Predatory behavior remains illegal. It's as simple as that.

I see no evidence that this cis-man loophole exists is has or will ever lead to a gallop of predators strolling into women's locker rooms.

Generally speaking, individuals, not classes of people, are held liable for criminal behavior. I see no real difference between Yaniv being used as an excuse to deny all trans people their rights and weirdo racists quoting FBI crime statistics to justify excluding blacks.
 
If I had a pre-teen girl, she would definitely be aware of who transgender people are (considering her mother is one) and there wouldn't be a need to have a discussion about this in the first place.

I do think there should be age restrictions at certain hours, because adults shouldn't be disrobing around children period, regardless of gender.

Here is the thing. She does know who transgender people are.
We always ask for help from the transwoman at CVS. My kid really likes her because she knows where anything is whereas I will give up after one aisle (hate shopping. in/out with my planned item is my goal. But I have this annoying shopper kid). I dont have any as personal friends, but then my circle is very small.

But I can't expect her to know how to tell, especially in a shower/locker situation. How does she tell?
Your kid knows you, but are all the naked males just automatically assumed to be transgender moms like you? Maybe you just won't get how protective a parent can be til you become one. I know I wasn't.

The transwoman at CVS wears a wig (a nice one) and looks not to have had hormones yet, though she is so thin is is hard to say.
She would not even know THAT person in her locker room when all stripped down of clothes make-up and hair. Or any 2 of the 3.

I can't expect her to know how to tell, especially in a shower/locker situation. How does she tell?
Your kid knows you, but are all the naked males just automatically assumed to be transgender moms? Maybe you just won't get how protective a parent can be til you become one. I know I wasn't.

Now, most persons are modest so if nothing was shown, my kid would not know, I wouldnt know, and it would not be an issue, right?

That's why I gave her the 'talk'. If she actually sees it or that person approaches her, big red flags should go up.
Do they not concern you at all?
I bet they will do the ages thing if it arises and I am glad that you agree. You might not get the elderly German women to keep their suits on- or abide by any rules. They are too stubborn and pragmatic about just getting things done and dont care at all!!

We havent been often because of Covid.

I do not see why calling it transphobic is accurate though. It feels a bit common sense to me

Most trees in a lightening storm don't get struck...but we all know not to stand under one. It won't make my kid scared of trees in general...just in certain situations.
 
Last edited:
Filing a lawsuit proves nothing. That's the point. Anyone with the ability to fill out paperwork can file a lawsuit. You could sue me for infringing on your civil rights under the theory that I'm actually 3 sentient cacti stacked up in a trench coat using the computer to mine the metal from your teeth fillings. This isn't hyperbole, absolute incoherent nonsense gets filed everyday.

There's no reason to consider stunt lawsuits as meaningful data points unless they are successful. Hand wringing about go-nowhere meritless lawsuits from a known vexatious litigant is a prime example of nutpicking.

Why do you call the lawsuit meritless? Do you agree that such women-only competitions can discriminate against transwomen? This seems to be going against pretty much your entire position in this thread.
 
Nevertheless, it seems to me that it’s a lot more straightforward (and more generally useful) to codify appropriate social boundary type behavior and use that as our standard, than to try to keep using Yes I Am/No You Aren’t as our standard while totally ignoring behavior.

I don't think it's an either/or thing. Probably everyone is in favor of kicking people out of any venue when they behave inappropriately, whatever the venue and for any appropriate standards for behavior within that venue. But behavior-based rules aren't preventative. You can only invoke them after a violation, and given that many predatory behaviors aren't actually illegal, the remedies are pretty limited and not very dissuasive to predators.

And I don't think most people are asking for document checks before admission either. But if you really go full self ID, then how would you prevent Zuby from entering a women's locker room? Even Boudicca is opposed to that, but Boudicca has suggested no means by which Zuby could be denied entry. Should we let Zuby in? On what basis can we keep Zuby out? There is no way to do so with pure self ID.
 
Management almost certainly can. Bad behavior is not a protected class.

Individual people should not be self-deputizing themselves as bathroom police because, push come to shove, they have no authority to deny entry.

Exactly. The problem is her behavior, and her status as a woman doesn't override her being a potential threat based on her (well-known as this point) actions.
 
Why do you call the lawsuit meritless? Do you agree that such women-only competitions can discriminate against transwomen? This seems to be going against pretty much your entire position in this thread.

I am assuming, based on Yaniv's track record, that she will fail once again. I'm not familiar with the case or her claims, nor do I think it merits much attention unless she is successful.
 
There's no reason to consider stunt lawsuits as meaningful data points unless they are successful.
How confident are you that Yaniv will lose once again? Does it feel weird to be rooting for a right-wing legal advocacy group to win based on the theory that sometimes it's okay to segregate by sex rather than gender self-identification?
 
Last edited:
Gender was the problem all along.

:thumbsup:

Pretty much. A fair number of feminists have been saying this for decades.

There's a difference in application though. For a fair number of women, the problem is gender, and the solution is to remove gender stereotypes. That means that anyone can wear whatever clothing, make-up, and hairstyles that they wish, and can do whatever jobs they want, and can be as masculine or as feminine as they desire... without that having any affect on how other people treat them, and without that being tied to biological sex. Effeminate men who like pink and ballet are still men, just as much as any other man. Masculine women who like demolition derbies and wear steel toed boots are still women, just as much as any other woman.

For a fair number of transactivists, the solutions seems to be to reinforce those gender stereotypes, and redefine sex to be dependent on how a person presents or identifies. The effect of this then is that effeminate men are so much less "man" that they are now "women". And masculine women are now told that they're not "women", they're "men".

And then you end up with idiocy like what Tsukasa Buddha posted above, where some arbitrary person has simply decided that gay men aren't cismen.
 
Yaniv successfully closed down three businesses

I agree that vexatious litigants are a real problem. Something should be done about them, including the ones that aren't transwomen.

Edit: Here's a press release about predatory serial ADA litigants. Legal trolls always find a way to abuse the law. It just goes with the territory of having a legal system. I would no sooner suggest stripping trans people their rights as a solution to vexatious litigants than I would recommend revoking the ADA that makes society more accessible to people with disabilities.

https://www.sgrlaw.com/ttl-articles/cracking-down-on-serial-ada-disability-claimants/
 
Last edited:
OMG. Why did I go read about him? I had only heard the story of the ball waxing and that pool party....but there is much more.

A straight up pedophile sicko predator POS.
Seriously, how is he not locked up?

My inference is that he's too high profile of a transgender person, and that any attempt to do so will result in endless challenges of the government being transphobic and violating trans rights.

Because yeah, I can't come up with any rational reason that this predator is allowed to roam free.

Honestly, I don't even know that he has any kind of dysphoria at all. He didn't even begin referring to himself as transgender until after self-id got passed in CA.
 
Last edited:
I agree that vexatious litigants are a real problem. Something should be done about them, including the ones that aren't transwomen.
The emotional harm that Vaniv can cause by setting the barbed wire baseball bat crew on the women involved is however unique
 
The emotional harm that Vaniv can cause by setting the barbed wire baseball bat crew on the women involved is however unique

If only physically intimidating people with weapons were a crime. Oh well, I guess our hands are tied.

Edit: I actually don't know what you mean here. Googling Yaniv and barbed wire comes up with nothing. She was convicted for brandishing a stun gun during some internet slap fight. It's easy to enforce the laws against violent intimidation.

Why is revoking the protections of C-16 the preferred remedy here? Can you honestly see no other legal solution that punishes bad actors while still respecting the civil rights of a whole class of people that have nothing to do with Yaniv?
 
Last edited:
:thumbsup:

Pretty much. A fair number of feminists have been saying this for decades.

There's a difference in application though. For a fair number of women, the problem is gender, and the solution is to remove gender stereotypes. That means that anyone can wear whatever clothing, make-up, and hairstyles that they wish, and can do whatever jobs they want, and can be as masculine or as feminine as they desire... without that having any affect on how other people treat them, and without that being tied to biological sex. Effeminate men who like pink and ballet are still men, just as much as any other man. Masculine women who like demolition derbies and wear steel toed boots are still women, just as much as any other woman.

For a fair number of transactivists, the solutions seems to be to reinforce those gender stereotypes, and redefine sex to be dependent on how a person presents or identifies. The effect of this then is that effeminate men are so much less "man" that they are now "women". And masculine women are now told that they're not "women", they're "men".

And then you end up with idiocy like what Tsukasa Buddha posted above, where some arbitrary person has simply decided that gay men aren't cismen.

I am not an "effeminate man" though, I am a woman and always have been. That's what you don't seem to understand about us, an effeminate man isn't a woman and I am not a man.

It's not about fashion or behavior or gender stereotypes, it is about internal identity, and being allowed to dress and act as we want but still be tied down to the gender and sex we were assigned at birth isn't going to cut it.
 
I see no reason to disbelieve Yaniv.

I do. But it doesn't really matter, the basic problem is the same either way.

Predatory behavior remains illegal. It's as simple as that.

Not even close. The worst predatory behaviors are illegal. But plenty of it isn't.

Generally speaking, individuals, not classes of people, are held liable for criminal behavior. I see no real difference between Yaniv being used as an excuse to deny all trans people their rights and weirdo racists quoting FBI crime statistics to justify excluding blacks.

Unless you are arguing for doing away with sex segregation in totality (I don't think you are, but correct me if I'm wrong), then you aren't actually opposed to treating different classes of people differently. The question of which class of people an individual properly belongs to is not even remotely equivalent to the question of how those classes get treated. Excluding blacks was wrong. Do you think excluding men from women's locker rooms is wrong? Because that's the only way to draw a parallel here.

And I'm not even arguing that transwomen cannot be classified as women for the purposes of which locker room they can access. But unless you rely on something more than self ID, then you aren't giving trans people their rights, you are demolishing the very concept of sex segregation. Sex segregation doesn't exist if anyone can arbitrarily declare their sex. If you can't even say, you don't qualify as a woman because you're not only obviously biologically male, you haven't even made an effort to pass as female, then sex segregation doesn't actually exist. But even that low bar is unacceptable to the self ID proponents.
 
If only physically intimidating people with weapons were a crime. Oh well, I guess our hands are tied.



Why is revoking the protections of C-16 the preferred remedy here? Can you honestly see no other legal solution that punishes bad actors while still respecting the civil rights of a whole class of people that have nothing to do with Yaniv?
I never denied it was a crime, I simply said the pressure Vaniv was able to bring on the women involved from the barbed wire baseball bat brigade is unique.

I'm not sure "well, you can just go to the police" is a great comfort to anyone, never mind a recent immigrant who might feel contacting the authorities (who apparently support Vaniv) might be counter productive
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom