Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

Nevertheless, it seems to me that it’s a lot more straightforward (and more generally useful) to codify appropriate social boundary type behavior and use that as our standard.

I agree, in concept. The challenge here is that such an approach does not PREVENT harm.

Why is drunk driving illegal? It's not illegal to be drunk. And it's not illegal to drive. And most people who drive while slightly intoxicated don't do any harm. Why don't we decriminalize it, and then say that we'll punish those who cause an accident while drunk instead? Then we codify the appropriate social behavior of being in control while you're driving... but we're not limiting the right of drunk people to drive themselves home, right?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Everyone just learn how to hold it in and go to the bathroom at home.

I'm (obviously) being facititious but Jesus people care a lot about what's going on in their bathrooms. Public bathrooms are in, do business, get out. I don't really hang around in them long enough to make other people uncomfortable, get uncomfortable myself.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Management almost certainly can. Bad behavior is not a protected class.

Individual people should not be self-deputizing themselves as bathroom police because, push come to shove, they have no authority to deny entry.

So... do we keep a database of everyone's behavior at every gym or locker-room in the country? And when anyone enters the gym, they are checked against that database before they're allowed to go in?

 

[Boudicca90]

Canada has self-ID now, and has for a couple years. It requires filling out some forms and having official IDs changed.

So far seems to be fine. no waves of cis-men lining up to get their peeping-tom permit from the gov. I guess we're all waiting for the pervert apocalypse that was promised by the anti-trans advocates when this was being debated years ago.

Yep, same thing here in California. Everything is going fine, but I'm sure the cis male perverts are just biding their time waiting to strike...

 

[Meadmaker]

Everyone just learn how to hold it in and go to the bathroom at home.

I'm (obviously) being facititious but Jesus people care a lot about what's going on in their bathrooms. Public bathrooms are in, do business, get out. I don't really hang around in them long enough to make other people uncomfortable, get uncomfortable myself.

I don't think anyone has actually mentioned public bathrooms for the last several pages. Not once. (Heads off to search function.....)

ETA: I was wrong....sort of. The mentions of bathrooms followed the standard pattern in these situations. People concerned about privacy rights talk about changing rooms. People concerned about transgender rights talk about bathrooms.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

So... do we keep a database of everyone's behavior at every gym or locker-room in the country? And when anyone enters the gym, they are checked against that database before they're allowed to go in?

Every gym I've ever been to involves proving to the desk clerk that I am a member. I'm assuming this would be difficult for someone who has been ejected and had their membership cancelled for being a perv.

 

[Boudicca90]

She want the RIGHT for penis-havers to be in female spaces, female prisons, play in female sports, get female scholarsips and honors, count as females in politics and executive positions... and to force females to be silent and surrender those things to penis-havers.

Genitals don't determine sex or gender. Cisgender women don't need to be "silent" or "surrender", you just can't exclude us anymore. Sorry.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I never denied it was a crime, I simply said the pressure Vaniv was able to bring on the women involved from the barbed wire baseball bat brigade is unique.

I'm not sure "well, you can just go to the police" is a great comfort to anyone, never mind a recent immigrant who might feel contacting the authorities (who apparently support Vaniv) might be counter productive

Just to keep things in perspective... SuburbanTurkey doesn't seem to feel that there's anything at all wrong with hordes of anonymous people harassing and threatening people as long as what the target has done is "morally wrong" by ST's standard.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Boudicca.

What differentiates sex and gender for you? (Honest question, no snark.)

Do you consider them the same thing?

 

[Emily's Cat]

yes, the cops suck and they often don't treat crimes seriously when it impacts populations they don't care about.

For example... sexual crimes where women are the victims?

 

[Boudicca90]

Seriously, do you think that sexual predators don't exist? Or that sexual predators are simply way too nice to take advantage of the giant gaping loopholes introduced by self-id in order to engage in predatory behavior?

On a very, very serious note: Why do you hold the feeling of affirmation of transwomen to be a higher priority than the safety of females?

How long has it been since you stopped beating your husband? Maybe stop asking me and other posters loaded questions for once.

 

[Earthborn]

Where is this magical utopian land in which you live?

Some place below sea level with lots of bike paths.

All of the places on earth that I'm aware of still have sexism and racism in their cultures.

We have that too, just not enshrined in law. Not since a decade or 2 ago anyway. No "sex-based" rights exist.

 

[Meadmaker]

Genitals don't determine sex or gender. Cisgender women don't need to be "silent" or "surrender", you just can't exclude us anymore. Sorry.

Do they determine anything? Are they significant in any way?


They seem pretty significant to me. That whole baby making thing. The rape thing. The sexual attraction thing. There's a lot of things that most people seem to think genitals matter for. I get that some people in our society think too much is made of them, but, honestly, I think they're pretty important.

 

[Joe Random]

Genitals don't determine sex or gender. <...>

 

[Emily's Cat]

Mostly because I don't see any reputable reporting on the matter, just the usual reactionary doom-saying running stories with very little info beyond "let's all gawk at this weirdo".

Yeah, it's surprisingly hard to "see" any of it when you squinch your eyes shut and put your fingers in your ears and holler "la la la I can't hear you".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For example... sexual crimes where women are the victims?

Exactly. Cops are notoriously indifferent to sexual crimes and domestic violence issues against women, especially women from marginalized groups like racial minorities, the poor, and LGBT women.

Probably has a lot to do with the fact that cops are disproportionately abusers themselves.

Not sure what point you think you are making. All cops are bastards.

 

[Thermal]

This is such a weird discussion...

If dealing with anything physical, your sex matters. If it's how you think of yourself, it's your gender. Real, physical situations like medical treatment, sports participation, imprisonment, and intimate interaction with others are gauged by sex. How you want to be addressed or live as is a gender concern.

A guy who wants to be addressed as 'she' should be obliged. Not so for a locker room or cellmate or athletic competitor.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have no idea what you mean by this, google pulls a blank, and I have very little trust that you will present whatever facts of this matter truthfully.

Are you playing willfully dumb here?

Manger Douse is referencing the hordes of anonymous internet TRAs who have adopted "Punch a TERF" and "TERFs should all die" and posting pictures of themselves holding barbed-wire wrapped baseball bats with captions like "I'm going TERF hunting" or "Out to smack a transphobe".

THAT group of barbed-wire brandishing baseball bat brigade. THAT group of anonymous people who threatened and harassed the racial minority women that Yaniv targeted for his "vexatious litigation" because Yaniv made them out to be bigoted transphobes... and the internet horde of TRAs agreed with him.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is such a weird discussion...

If dealing with anything physical, your sex matters. If it's how you think of yourself, it's your gender. Real, physical situations like medical treatment, sports participation, imprisonment, and intimate interaction with others are gauged by sex. How you want to be addressed or live as is a gender concern.

A guy who wants to be addressed as 'she' should be obliged. Not so for a locker room or cellmate or athletic competitor.

your argument from personal incredulity is noted.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't care about the internet. The internet doesn't have bathrooms and locker rooms and sports.

Real world opinions about how we should act in the real world are all that should be discussed here.