Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[JoeMorgue]

At this point. Push for more privacy in general and harsher penalties for sexual crimes.

It ain't perfect and it ain't going to make a lot of people anywhere near fully happy, but it's a start.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't see why institutional discrimination is justified in this case. Individual patients can have preference, and in extreme enough circumstances, such as a rape crisis center, it's probably wise to just accede to their prejudicial requests.

Honestly, I'm almost out of words. Casting the survivor of rape as prejudicial and implying that the VICTIM OF RAPE is a bad person because they want to be examined by a female person... I cannot come up with anything other than misogyny.

 

[Elaedith]

Institutional and Ideological Capture

There has been so much evidence of this presented by now that if anyone is still going to assert that institutions and governments are basing their policies on robust evidence presented by actual (not politically motivated) experts rather than powerful trans lobbies, they are either completely impervious to evidence or don't care at all about the truth of what they are saying.

BTW, I liked that example a while back where you pointed out a ridiculous definition of biological sex adopted by a legal firm, and LJ insisted that legal firms get their definitions from medical experts, when in fact the definition came from transgender employees at the firm.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Rapiers at dawn. I've always wanted to be someone's second in a duel.

Will you be my second, noble sir?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The people opposing trans rights are wildly hyperbolic about what will happen as a consequence.

Yep. all the things that have actually happened, that you keep ignoring for a few days... then you just say again "those things never happen, it's all hyperbole" as if you've never been shown the things that HAVE ALREADY ACUTALLY HAPPENED!!!!!

How many rapes should female be expected to suffer in order to validate and affirm the feelings of transwomen?

 

[Emily's Cat]

IIRC two people lost their business because of Jessica Yaniv but I assume all the people she litigated against have been fully reimbursed their legal fees right?

Nope.

Honestly,. at this point I don't understand why Yaniv is still walking around free.

Yaniv has harassed minority women and put two of them out of business. He* has sexually harassed female colleagues. He has creeped on female minors. He has tried to throw a "gender affirming" topless pool party for minor females where their parents weren't allowed to attend. He has lately been calling the fire department repeatedly while naked in the tub for "lift assistance" then making lewd suggestions and overtures to the responding firemen.

He belongs behind bars as the predator that he is... and he definitely does NOT belong in the women's prison.

*Yaniv is one person for whom I refuse to bow to their pronoun preference. That's a social consideration that they have repeatedly betrayed.

 

[d4m10n]

We can't create the distinction between stereotypes used for good and stereotypes used for bad.

Can we distinguish between harmful stereotypes and others?


Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[JoeMorgue]

Can we distinguish between harmful stereotypes and others?

Yes but that's not the topic and it's a rabbit hole there is no point going down.

The question isn't the value of stereotypes. It's one group thinking if they use stereotypes in non-traditional ways they are somehow doing something noble.

A biological male adopting some traditional "feminine" quality and identifying as a woman is just promoting the stereotype that that traditional quality is something expected of biological women.

You can't have your cake and eat it as well. You can't use stereotypes to prompt up your personal "identity" and expect that to work in a vacuum.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender "is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." Dude seems fairly masculine to me.

Yeah... so does Lea DeLaria. Is DeLaria a man or a woman under your definition?

 

[theprestige]

Fear itself is not a reason to separate people.

You say fear, I say risk assessment.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And, again, this is all a red herring. Nothing about "masculine" and "feminine" qualities is the point since Transgender people aren't required to adopt any qualities of the other sex.

Again the standard put on the table is pure self-determination, pure self-identification. I don't know why we're talking about other qualities.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Apologies if this was already discussed, but do untransitioned transmen have this dilemma in a male locker room, or does that get resolved differently?

I would generally say that they don't have quite the same issue, because they keep to themselves and generally stay out of sight.

On the other hand... I also recently ran across a long blog post by an untransitioned transman who ended up at a gay men's sex party... and was angry and hurt and up in arms because the gay men didn't want to have sex with his front-hole... So...

I don't even know anymore. Postmodernism is going to eat the world.

 

[Distracted1]

Emily is willing to work toward consensus. Boudicca appears to have taken the "my way is the only way" approach to negotiation.

Boudicca seems to be the one that recognizes that there is no compromise in a discussion about whether "A" is "A" or not.

 

[Collin237]

You'd think that going on fifty years on this planet would produce a more practical, less naive solution than global kum-by-ya.

There's nothing naive about global solidarity.

 

[theprestige]

And, again, this is all a red herring. Nothing about "masculine" and "feminine" qualities is the point since Transgender people aren't required to adopt any qualities of the other sex.

Again the standard put on the table is pure self-determination, pure self-identification. I don't know why we're talking about other qualities.

Because the UK Office of National Statistics stalls out at "gender is a social construct" an the TRA side refuses to move past that point.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If anyone can see a woman's vagina without using a speculum and a torch that woman's consent, something is very wrong.

Because that's what we're talking about at the end of the day.

Currently, we have a situation where women in general consent to potentially seeing other women, and being seen by other women, while naked and vulnerable. Because the current and historical convention is that those women are females.

Now, however, we have a very small group of people who want to change the rules. They want to make it so that they get to look at naked women, without the consent of those women... and they want those women to be in situations where they view their penis without the consent of those women. In any other context, we would call this voyeurism and exhibitionism (or flashing).

Now, however, women are being told that if they object to other people exposing their opposite sex genitals to them without their consent, those women are bigots. And if women object to having their own nudity viewed by people of the opposite sex, those women are also bigots.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Hopefully Emily will not be too offended by me agreeing with her, but she's spot on.

A white guy wearing his pants too low and listening to gansta' rap is still perpetrating a negative black stereotype, he's not "Transblack."

Someone defining themselves as a woman because they assume some traditional traits of woman is still perpetrating old stereotypes. It doesn't magically become progressive and inclusive because they are doing it in non-traditional ways.

I'm usually not offended by you at all

I get frustrated with you sometimes... and I'm quite certain you get frustrated by me. But not offended. You're usually not offensive at all.

 

[Meadmaker]

Nobody is telling you your definition is meaningless and therefore worthless.

To be fair, some of us are thinking that it might be.

Either it's circular, which makes it meaningless and worthless or it has to be taken at face value to mean that a woman is a social construct only, and defined by behavior. That isn't meaningless, but it doesn't seem like where we really want to go.

On the other hand, that's taking the definition literally and without context. As the rest of your post noted, what's really significant is how that definition can be used in order to formulate policy that is based on the definition. That's really the critical part, not the wordplay sparring. What are the implications for public policy? We'll see if that conversation goes anywhere that isn't in circles. (Hope springs eternal.)

 

[d4m10n]

Yeah... so does Lea DeLaria. Is DeLaria a man or a woman under your definition?

It doesn't seem particularly likely that people react to her in the way they do those who are generally expected to embody masculinity rather than femininity, allowing for an idiosyncratic exception in the case of fashion sense. If she asked me which way to the clothes racks, I'd have to assume she means the men's rather than the women's dept, but I'd be somewhat less wary of the possibility that she'd take a swing at me if I gave the wrong answer than I would talking to a man.

Nothing about "masculine" and "feminine" qualities is the point since Transgender people aren't required to adopt any qualities of the other sex.

Required by whom?

 

[Meadmaker]

A straight man expressing his displeasure at seeing a vagina and/or female breasts would be social suicide.

Edit: now that I think about it, gay men might want to refrain from such opinions as well.

The situation is also extremely rare, because people with vaginas, regardless of their gender identity, know that nothing really good can come out of exposing that vagina in a men's locker room.