Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[caveman1917]

That's a hilarious image. "Must ......not .......look....." BUZZ!!!! "Uhh...sorry."

Yeah you'd be more inclined to look just because of that buzzer putting the thought in your head.

 

[theprestige]

Well if anything I think the last 5 threads have safely put to bed the whole "There's an obvious compromise that we can come to" thing.

Yeah, but at least now we know that if women and transwomen around the world just talk it out nicely with each other, they'll discover the elusive compromise that certainly exists.

 

[Rolfe]

A straight man expressing his displeasure at seeing a vagina and/or female breasts would be social suicide.

Edit: now that I think about it, gay men might want to refrain from such opinions as well.

If anyone can see a woman's vagina without using a speculum and a torch, something is very wrong.

 

[Olmstead]

If anyone can see a woman's vagina without using a speculum and a torch, something is very wrong.

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean ... Vulva?

Actually, I'll just go away before I reveal too much ignorance of the female anatomy.

 

[theprestige]

If anyone can see a woman's vagina without using a speculum and a torch, something is very wrong.

Prolapses can be exciting. Don't kink shame.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm tired of spoonfeeding people. I wonder if these questions are borne of something other than an attempt to understand....

It's extremely easily inferred from that link. But jeez, if you want me to pander to all this "playing dumb" and provide you with my* definition of "woman", in the strict context of transgender identity:

Woman: a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself, and so the gender category of "woman" which someone identifies with may not match the sex (male or female) they were assigned at birth.

Alright, great, thank you!

Bear in mind, however, that since this definition of "woman" essentially means "Conforms to the socially created stereotype of woman", it ALSO implies that a butch lesbian who wears dungarees is actually a man, and an effeminate gay male who likes pink is a woman.

 

[d4m10n]

Sure, that's more accurate. But that still means the two genders are just paradigms based on what members of a certain sex tend to do. The understanding of gender is still completely dependent on sex.

Not completely, no. I don't think it should be difficult at all to find masc/fem distinctions that are mostly or even entirely arbitrary, such as the baby blue/pastel pink dichotomy for infant onesies or the idea that only women wear skirts (apologies to the Scots) or the notion that women should have lengthy hair but men should not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not just "my" definition: in fact also the definition of the UK Govt, the WHO, the UN, DSM5zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Fun... so you seem to think that various governments and the DSM all define "woman" as "people who conform to regressive social stereotypes of womanhood"?

Unfortunately... I agree with you even though they don't put that crap in writing.

Also unfortunately, you don't seem to have any problem at all with shoe-horning women back into their social cages.

 

[Emily's Cat]

But in passing, maybe you might ask yourself how and why these definitions have been adopted by all of the relevant global institutions and many World governments.

Institutional and Ideological Capture

 

[JoeMorgue]

We can't create the distinction between stereotypes used for good and stereotypes used for bad.

Nor can we create the distinction between stereotypes an individual applies to themselves and stereotypes other people apply.

Transgender people do not get their own special right to apply gender stereotypes to themselves.

 

[Emily's Cat]

2) Telling me in so many ways why "my" definition** is meaningless and therefore worthless.

No, now we get to move on to discussion about why "your" definition is regressive and just plain horrible.

FFS, 'your' definition is equivalent to saying that a "black person" is anyone who acts like the negative and regressive stereotype of what black people are like.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Cool, so why did you use a link from the ONS and not from say, the DSM or any of the world's clinical experts for your definition?

Because not a single one of them actually defines "woman" in any way at all. The DSM doesn't even come close to it. Furthermore, they all know very well that the implied definition of "woman" that "gender identity" hinges on is regressive and denigrating, especially to females... they just don't want to put that in print.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Hopefully Emily will not be too offended by me agreeing with her, but she's spot on.

A white guy wearing his pants too low and listening to gansta' rap is still perpetrating a negative black stereotype, he's not "Transblack."

Someone defining themselves as a woman because they assume some traditional traits of woman is still perpetrating old stereotypes. It doesn't magically become progressive and inclusive because they are doing it in non-traditional ways.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean ... Vulva?

Actually, I'll just go away before I reveal too much ignorance of the female anatomy.

The most you could possibly see in a woman who is behaving normally in a changing room would be the front half of the outer side of the outer lips of the vulva. Not that exciting, although I suppose your mileage may differ.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This would be so much easier if humans just had cloacas.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender just describes how members of a certain sex behave.

Woohoo! Women are happy housewives who love cleaning and cooking and having babies and taking care of the kids, and their greatest goal in life is to go shopping and get a new pair of heels for her husband to admire her in! Women are best described as being the object of male sexual desire!

Progress!!!!!!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Fear itself is not a reason to separate people.

Cool. I will assume that you oppose laws that disallow convicted sex offenders from living right next to school?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I also feel the need to point that we're 5 continuations into the, what 4th or 5th, essentially same thread and what characteristics transpeople actually have has still not once been clarified.

"Because I say so" is still the only answer we've got.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Deleted because it seems that telling the truth about the probable reasons why creepy men want to have the "right" to enter spaces where women are undressing, and expose themselves, seems to be against the rules here now.

I don't think it is... as long as it doesn't imply a personal accusation leveled at another forum member.

Unless you're calling that member a transphobe or a bigot. That's perfectly acceptable it seems.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Boudicca and Emily will never reach a consensus. So what do we do?

Emily is willing to work toward consensus. Boudicca appears to have taken the "my way is the only way" approach to negotiation.