Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[TurkeysGhost]

That's not really true. In the US if you get sued and win (by judgment or dismissal), you can often recover attorney costs from whomever sued you. That's very common. But yes, the system is still prone to abuse.

Only under certain specific circumstances. Generally speaking, attorney's fees are not awarded.

 

[Meadmaker]

That's three out of four. Do we also all agree on the definition of transman?

If so, then there are six categories that can be formed by joining two of those with "or". It's not logically necessary to pick two of them to equate with "man" and "woman".

Yes, we agree on the definition of transman.

Is it necessary to pick two of them for "man" and "woman"? Only if we want to use one of those words in a sentence and assert that those words have meaning.

 

[Collin237]

And has Jessica Yaniv paid any of that money back because as it stands this is far from a happy ending

I'm taking it that you agree beauty treatments are another field you agree it's acceptable to discriminate against trans-women - how would you suggest I convince people like Bodiccia and Archy Gemil?

Waxing a scrotum would cause serious injury. It's not discrimination to refuse to GBH a client.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes to the first and no to the second. Cisgender men are men and shouldn't be allowed in women only spaces if we don't want them in there.

Why do you get rights that I don't have? Why should I be discriminated against when you aren't?

 

[d4m10n]

No, you're talking about gender stereotypes, gender norms, statistical patterns, or some other concept that is concerned with the frequency of a certain behaviour. All those things are part of a gender, but so are all the outliers, and in its most basic form, gender describes what a sex does.

Not buying this part. Buck Angel isn't an example of feminine comportment, even if he had to deal with expectations of femininity as a youth.

 

[Ziggurat]

Only under certain specific circumstances. Generally speaking, attorney's fees are not awarded.

Frivolous lawsuits are often one of those circumstances. Yaniv's lawsuit would likely qualify here.

 

[Olmstead]

Not buying this part. Buck Angel isn't an example of feminine comportment, even if he had to deal with expectations of feminity as a youth.

Why? All else being equal, what gender would Buck Angel be if he claimed that he was a woman?

 

[Matthew Best]

Reading the Wiki page it [Yaniv] seems to be a professional grievance monger. I wasn't aware of the weapons charges until just now.

I was particularly taken with this sentence:

In February 2021, the Township of Langley Fire Department wrote to Yaniv informing her that she would be charged if she contacted them again to request assistance getting out of a bath, alleging that she had summoned the Fire Department for this purpose dozens of time[s,] despite it not constituting a medical emergency and subjected Fire Department staff to "inappropriate and lewd conduct".

 

[Meadmaker]

You're still labouring under a set of fundamental misunderstandings about what gender dysphoria and transidentity actually are (and what they are not).

What a bizarre response.

Here was the question.

So, the question was why was it that we would support a ciswoman in her desire to avoid sharing a locker room with cismen, but we should not support her in her desire to avoid sharing a locker room with transwomen?

(I assume that your response was related to that question, because the rest of the post was just echoing your definition.)


I'm asking why a ciswoman ought to object to disrobing in the presence of cismen, but not of transwomen, and your response is to say that I don't understand what gender dysphoria is.

I can't even connect those dots.

As with my response to Boudicca, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm going to try to make sense out of your reply. I think you are saying that anyone who understood gender dysphoria wouldn't need to ask that question, or that the answer would be obvious.

What that would mean is that the ciswomen who does not want to disrobe in the presence of anyone who had male sexual organs ought not to be supported because she should understand that there is something about the internal state of mind of transwomen that ought to be perceived by the ciswoman, and that, having perceived that internal sense of self of the transwoman, any anxiety about nudity in the presence of an individual with male reproductive organs ought to be relieved, and she ought to be indifferent to the presence of that reproductively male person. For cismen, though, it is appropriate for a ciswoman to feel anxiety about disrobing in his presence, because the internal state of mind of the cisman is such that it is natural to feel some anxiety when disrobing in his presence.


ETA: By "internal state of mind" I was referring to this:

gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself,

 

[d4m10n]

Why? All else being equal, what gender would Buck Angel be if he claimed that he was a woman?

Gender "is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." Dude seems fairly masculine to me.

 

[Collin237]

Yes, we agree on the definition of transman.

Is it necessary to pick two of them for "man" and "woman"? Only if we want to use one of those words in a sentence and assert that those words have meaning.

And if they don't, what can you say about it? If it's meaningless to say "I am a woman", then it's also meaningless to say "you are not a woman", because in the English language "not" can only mean Boolean not.

 

[Meadmaker]

I have wondered about how long behavioral evolution takes.

Specifically, I have wondered if wearing clothes has been going on long enough to have been influenced by evolution. I think our ancestors are believed to have been wearing clothes for about 100,000 years, which is more than 5,000 generations. Is that enough time that some aspects of clothing, or the lack of the same, to have evolved, in a very real sense?

I have said that the aversion to being naked around the opposite sex is instinctive. In saying that, I'm basically saying that "modesty" is more than just a cultural phenomenon. Obviously, it is influenced by culture, but is it more than just purely cultural?

Going back to this, I've done some googling in scholar.google.com. It's amazing to me sometimes what is and is not covered in lots of research.

My thinking on this topic, of transgender rights in general, and specifically as it relates to female only spaces has been evolving, and I'm trying to find research on sexual signaling in humans. Every culture in the world wears at least some clothing most of the time. Have we evolved to the point that display of genitals to the opposite sex is perceived, instinctively, as a sexual signal? Is it more than just cultural?

 

[Olmstead]

Gender "is the range of physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity." Dude seems fairly masculine to me.

Right ...

Does that mean a masculine female who looks like a man isn't a woman? Even if she does not have gender dysphoria and feels like a woman?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

IIRC at least one of the recent three folded completely, but supposedly Yaniv had to pay them back (small consolation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Yaniv#2020



Reading the Wiki page it [Yaniv] seems to be a professional grievance monger. I wasn't aware of the weapons charges until just now.

Does Yaniv have legal representation in these cases or has she gone full blown pro-se vexatious litigant?

 

[d4m10n]

Does that mean a masculine female who looks like a man isn't a woman?

I've never met a woman even remotely as masculine as the outlier mentioned above. Have you? If so, how did you even guess their birth sex?

 

[Aber]

ETA: By "internal state of mind" I was referring to this:

And how does that differ from a religious belief?

 

[Joe Random]

I was particularly taken with this sentence:

In February 2021, the Township of Langley Fire Department wrote to Yaniv informing her that she would be charged if she contacted them again to request assistance getting out of a bath, alleging that she had summoned the Fire Department for this purpose dozens of time[s,] despite it not constituting a medical emergency and subjected Fire Department staff to "inappropriate and lewd conduct".

The whole picture brings to mind a bit Eddie Izzard did in one of his older routines. He drew a distinction between a "******* weirdo transvestite" (a strange guy living in a cave) and an "executive transvestite" (Izzard). Seems at a glance that Yaniv's trans issues stem from its underlying mental/personality issues, and not the other way round.

 

[Rolfe]

Not buying this part. Buck Angel isn't an example of feminine comportment, even if he had to deal with expectations of femininity as a youth.

Buck Angel is a lot more feminine that I think you realise.

 

[Olmstead]

I've never met a woman even remotely as masculine as the outlier mentioned above. Have you? If so, how did you even guess their birth sex?

No, it would be an extreme outlier, especially due to the body modification. Hypothetically possible, but very unlikely. I could probably find some feminine men on the opposite side of the spectrum though.

Are you arguing for lines then? What about people between those lines?

Or are you saying that everyone has both genders?

 

[Lithrael]

I’m looking forward to everyone in the locker room getting eye tracker headsets that make an annoying noise when you do a male gaze, and then you can get kicked out for making your headset go bzz too much. And the ladies can relax when nobody is beeping.

Do not put the headsets on for figure drawing class!

It seems to me that being able to trust that the person next to you is sharing your gender in good faith is really the point in a lot of this. I don’t buy the alarmist angle at all, but some guys do put a lot of effort into trolling, and you can’t just un-know that when some stranger shows up in the segregated area, as far as comfort and relaxation levels.

The chances that someone is perving on you may not actually be significantly higher than they were before you got worried, though, is where I get hairy feelings about exclusionism. The risk is going up, but if it’s going up a tiny amount then... participating in society just HAS risks, and we don’t say ‘how many mangled kids are okay with you if we raise the speed limit over 35.’ What we do is actually look at the risks vs what the people want to be able to do with their lives and compromise. Exclusionists say ‘compromise, bs, this is my only thing and I fought for it and you can pry it from my cold dead hands,’ and what are those of us who still want to share supposed to do? Let exclusionists slap it out of our open hands so the other guy can’t get it?

On the other hand, people taking it seriously and looking in on things, taking action if warranted etc when others are complaining about getting perved on does absolutely need to get normalized for safety and comfort to still be on the table. The old social rules got broken by the mods people are running now. If we had new clear social rules people could follow them and be cool, or not and be ejected.

For example, we could all sit down and agree that wherever covering up is allowed, peen must be covered; wherever no covering up is allowed, nobody complains about being able to see a peen; wherever public changing is going on, nobody pauses for a cigarette in between ‘remove undies’ and ‘put on swimsuit.’ That would probably get us through the next decade anyway.