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Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

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Collin237 said:
Interesting strategy that you, Emily's Cat, and Rolfe seem to have. You found out from me that I'm a post-structuralist, so you infer (correctly) that I don't believe in stereotypes. You play up a female stereotype to a ridiculous degree so I start to doubt who you are -- which you encourage by doubting who I am and hoping I'll retaliate. After about 10 days, you'll have me wondering if at least one of you is a male. And then, voila, peak trans.

Nice try. It isn't going to happen. :p
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You're the only one trolling, bro. Everyone else is just stating their opinions and discussing them, like they always do.

It's too bad you're not more familiar with this forum's general culture. But I won't be interacting with you anymore, I don't think, because I don't believe you are sincere. I think you're doing what you're accusing everyone else of doing. You probably believe it is a noble act, to troll the "terfs," but you're just out in space somewhere in reality.

I wish Archie would come back. At least we were having a discussion.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I'm starting to wonder if we're all too trusting and aren't catching on to being trolled. Not certain, by any means... but the thought is making its way across my brain in search of something to connect with.

... "yellow"...
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Tongue or bulldozer?



(just so you didn't think another reference was made unnoticed)
 
Collin237 said:
Interesting strategy that you, Emily's Cat, and Rolfe seem to have. You found out from me that I'm a post-structuralist, so you infer (correctly) that I don't believe in stereotypes. You play up a female stereotype to a ridiculous degree so I start to doubt who you are -- which you encourage by doubting who I am and hoping I'll retaliate. After about 10 days, you'll have me wondering if at least one of you is a male. And then, voila, peak trans.

Nice try. It isn't going to happen. :p
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:confused: What does this even mean, and how does this paranoia relate to this thread at all?
 
Louden Wilde said:
So you are against any female-only spaces?
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Psst...

Collin237 said:
[*]Appropriate housing in prison populations on the basis of gender identity
Separate housing for trans people.

[*]Eligibility for sex-based positions, scholarships, grants, and short-lists in organizations that have defined objectives for sex equality and representation
Separate tallies for trans people.

[*]Honorifics based on gender identity rather than sex such as "woman of the year" or "most highly paid woman CEO"
Gender recognition for purposes of publicity. Separate tallies for trans people in technical contexts.

[*]Access to sex-segregated services for high vulnerability populations such as rape shelters and domestic violence refuges
Separate housing for trans people.
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Collin237 said:
Two words I surprisingly haven't seen in this thread are "truscum" and "tucute".

https://bethaniaarts.com/2019/01/to...-war-with-each-other-seriously-needs-to-stop/
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I’ve heard truscum before. Tucute is new to me. The linked article is an interesting read.

The reason you don’t see those terms here is because they are used between disagreeing factions within the trans community. Unfortunately, we haven’t had enough trans people participating in these threads to repreeent the diversity of opinion within the community.

The first comment I found interesting, and eerily similar to the disagreements we have here. Appologies if it’s longer than I’m allowed to quote:
I’m straight up truscum and I’m ok with that. The problem is in the history and the development of “trans*” language and its medical diagnosis. To be a transsexual, that requires dysphoria. Full stop. But, “transsexual” got turned into a bad word by colonizers. Now, we all have to use the word “transgender”. And “gender” is a social construct, get it? Now Transsexuals (who experience dysphoria and have a medical diagnosis) are erased from the position that they initially had.

The solution? People who don’t experience dysphoria should never have colonized and stolen the “trans” designation because they’re not transsexuals. The fact that they did and thus erased people with a real problem so that they can adopt a feeling of being oppressed is the problem.

They should have just adopted a different label entirely. I don’t give a **** if Steve wants to have a full bushy beard and wear a dress in public and declares himself to be a plant with a made up pronoun. You do you, Steve, you beautiful child. But you’re not “trans”. You’re someone who refuses to conform to societal expectations and that’s perfectly fine. But ya not trans, Steve.

I’m all for people expressing themselves in whatever ways they please, but words need to mean something and currently, me and Steve got nothing in common. I don’t understand Steve and Steve doesn’t know what it is to be me. But for some stupid, ****** up reason, we’re both “trans”, right? Nah. Steve is adopting that label is an insult to my lived experience. **** Steve for claiming it. Steve can make up some other label to identify with. Then, I’ll be cool with Steve.
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(The link is in Collins post I quoted above.)
 
Ziggurat said:
I did not get that reference. But only explain if it's really good, if it's just meh, let it slide.
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https://www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/670/the-hitchhikers-guide-to-the-galaxy-by-douglas-adams/9780804191852/excerpt
At eight o’clock on Thursday morning Arthur didn’t feel very good. He woke up blearily, got up, wandered blearily round his room, opened a window, saw a bulldozer, found his slippers, and stomped off to the bathroom to wash.

Toothpaste on the brush—so. Scrub.

Shaving mirror—pointing at the ceiling. He adjusted it. For a moment it reflected a second bulldozer through the bathroom window. Properly adjusted, it reflected Arthur Dent’s bristles. He shaved them off, washed, dried and stomped off to the kitchen to find something pleasant to put in his mouth.

Kettle, plug, fridge, milk, coffee. Yawn.

The word bulldozer wandered through his mind for a moment in search of something to connect with.

The bulldozer outside the kitchen window was quite a big one.

He stared at it.

“Yellow,” he thought, and stomped off back to his bedroom to get dressed.

Passing the bathroom he stopped to drink a large glass of water, and another. He began to suspect that he was hung over. Why was he hung over? Had he been drinking the night be- fore? He supposed that he must have been. He caught a glint in the shaving mirror. “Yellow,” he thought, and stomped on to the bedroom.

He stood and thought. The pub, he thought. Oh dear, the pub. He vaguely remembered being angry, angry about something that seemed important. He’d been telling people about it, telling people about it at great length, he rather suspected: his clearest visual recollection was of glazed looks on other people’s faces. Something about a new bypass he’d just found out about. It had been in the pipeline for months only no one seemed to have known about it. Ridiculous. He took a swig of water. It would sort itself out, he’d decided, no one wanted a bypass, the council didn’t have a leg to stand on. It would sort itself out.

God, what a terrible hangover it had earned him though. He looked at himself in the wardrobe mirror. He stuck out his tongue. “Yellow,” he thought. The word yellow wandered through his mind in search of something to connect with.

Fifteen seconds later he was out of the house and lying in front of a big yellow bulldozer that was advancing up his garden path.
 
Emily's Cat said:
: confused : What does this even mean, and how does this paranoia relate to this thread at all?
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I *think* he's accusing you of adopting an extreme (stereotypical) TERF persona to mess with his head and make him question the reality of the arguments being made... Somehow he thinks this will lead to him losing enthusiasm for trans-rights activism.

One wonders what he would make of Boudicca's claim that she's biologically female.

Is she also adopting an extreme persona to mess with Collin's head and undermine his enthusiasm for TRA? Or would this be an "I changed my mind about transwomen being biological females because reasons" type scenario?
 
Emily's Cat said:
<...> although I'm now extremely curious about the tongue...
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<sighs with the realization that's it's been quite some time since he's heard that phrase in person>

For some reason I misremembered that part and thought he was examining his tongue in the mirror, not just his face in general.
 
Joe Random said:
<sighs with the realization that's it's been quite some time since he's heard that phrase in person>

For some reason I misremembered that part and thought he was examining his tongue in the mirror, not just his face in general.
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Ahh...

It could have been at some point. Adams changed bits and pieces around every time it was aired on radio, and I believe that there are variations between different printings of the book too.
 
Emily's Cat said:
That's not an answer to the question. It's a diversion.
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In every case in which diversion is not an option, I recommend that the trans woman participate fully as a woman in all respects. Conversely, if there's a good reason for her not to, I would discuss the exception with someone who allows diversion.
 
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