Cont: [ED] Discussion: Trans Women are not Women (Part 5)

[Emily's Cat]

... that moment when you start to reach for the apple, but notice someone has carved "Kallisti" into it ...

I'm starting to wonder if we're all too trusting and aren't catching on to being trolled. Not certain, by any means... but the thought is making its way across my brain in search of something to connect with.

... "yellow"...

 

[Emily's Cat]

The biggest problem I see here is how did she get to high school age without free services to help her feminize? If she was sure of her female gender but her body was still completely masculine, it was mainly her own right to autonomy that was being abridged.

Was the school too prudish?
Were her parents too prudish?
Was there no reputable gender specialist available?

Whatever it was, it should have been included with the locker room issue in the same litigation.

That's not an answer to the question. It's a diversion.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That article has this weird notion I keep seeing in articles about dating trans people, but never really hearing about in gay spaces:



I even saw an article claiming that gay men brag about being "platinum star gays", because they were born via caesarian and thus had never touched a vagina. For some reason this is absolutely hilarious to me.

Not only is this not a thing, but it strikes me as preposterous to assume that gays would be limiting themselves and being false about their desires to maintain an identity like straight people are (according to this theory). People realize they are gay precisely because they did not do those things.

The concept is so weird to me, I end up thinking it's some very inept attempt at gaslighting.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Now that is a new one to me!!! Too funny!

However, the sperm that made half of them got in there somehow!!

The true gold super duper brilliant star is having a mom who somehow had laparoscopic IVF, delivers by c-section, and bottle feeds.

Would that be the "Supernova Star" status level?

Then we can have the "Galaxy-ending Supermassive Black Hole" level for a gay man who was cloned from a single sperm cell, without ever having been exposed to any of that "X chromosome" stuff at all.

The concept is just ridiculous.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You're only making it worse for yourself, you bloody transphobe.

Seriously, he's a vagina fetishist!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Trans rights advocacy seems to be based on post-modernism, whereas I tend to think in terms of post-structuralism. So inevitably I'm not going to be 100% in alignment with the popular view.

If people object to the advocacy that is based on post-modernism... does that make them transphobic?

 

[Emily's Cat]

If someone born male wants to have their body surgically altered to become female (or vice versa), that's nobody else's business.

It's not like they're forcing anyone else to undergo the op.

Sure. But at what age are they able to make that determination? And should they be entitled to have other people pay for it or subsidize it?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not sure about anyone else, but my internal dialogue isn't visual. It doesn't come with me visualizing myself, let alone with various different physical characteristics, it's just a thought process and not a visualization. I'm not sure how this is even supposed to work. Like, when you have an internal dialogue you "see" yourself, and in that image you have various different physical characteristics from those you actually have?

I would guess that for most people, it's not visual in that way at all. It's more a proprioception-based concept of your shape and your presence in the world, and where you are in relation to the things around you.

I was quite thin for most of my life, and that shaped my internal construct of where I am in relation to things around me. If I don't think about it, my "instinct" is that I can totally fit through that narrow gap. I can't, because I'm quite a bit more round than I was 10 years ago. But my mental construct of myself hasn't caught up. Same kind of thing with how flexible I think I am, or whether or not hiking up that steep trail is going to leave me winded. My instinctual concept of myself doesn't conform to objective reality

 

[Emily's Cat]

I was just playing along with Meadmaker's Monty Python reference.

See my response to Emily's Cat in the post above this one. Nobody seriously got Meadmaker's reference and my playing along?

I got it. I just tried to run with it... and I'm not particularly good at being funny.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ultimately, what access she gets depends on civil deliberation throughout the school. Not a logical formula someone would drop as if from heaven; but not a contest between mobs either.

Okay, but the question is what you personally believe should happen. We're not asking you to prognosticate on what the school decided, we're asking for your personal opinion.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Performing womanhood.

Remember the man who was admitted to the ER with abdominal distress, who was triaged as a man, diagnosed as a man, and treated as a man? And it ended more badly than it should have, because he was female and pregnant?

Personally I'm impressed at the set of brass balls on someone who chooses the role of a fully-operational female in vanilla PiV sex, and still confidently insists to medical professionals that they're a man.

That's one word for it

It is evidence that this solipsism can be dangerous.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Two words I surprisingly haven't seen in this thread are "truscum" and "tucute".

That would be because they're offensive slurs. They've been used a few times, but mostly to point out that they're insulting. The only person I think has actually used "truscum" without pointing out that it's a dismissive insult... was a transgender person.

It might be worth noting that despite your claims of this being so incredibly toxic and "anti-trans" of a thread... it's not the gender critical side of the debate that is tossing slurs and labels around at fellow posters.

 

[Louden Wilde]

This is one of those things that gets technical, so feel free to just drift on past if you're not interested.



The only possible exception to the binary would be someone who had chimerism... and whose chimerism produced mixed sexual organs and left them with both types of gametes. To my knowledge though, nobody has been found with this condition, even though it's hypothetically possible.

A very few XX/XY chimeras have been found that have both kinds of gametes - though those folks have never been able to reproduce as both female and male (if fertile, usually the latter).

 

[theprestige]

All of the toxic name-calling on the "TERF side" of the thread has basically been just questioning and debating the premise that transwomen are women - what that means, how far it extends, etc.

The "TRA side" has declared that questioning and debate itself as toxic, and tried to shut it down by hurling epithets and abuse at anyone who didn't toe their line.

Collin really should read the thread.

 

[Collin237]

I think at this point that Collin must be 2 or 3 different people. Just repeat any question from 12 hours ago and you'll get a different answer.
It will totally work, because none of them read the thread.

(apologies to Butter if my thorough scientific analysis sounds like snark)

Interesting strategy that you, Emily's Cat, and Rolfe seem to have. You found out from me that I'm a post-structuralist, so you infer (correctly) that I don't believe in stereotypes. You play up a female stereotype to a ridiculous degree so I start to doubt who you are -- which you encourage by doubting who I am and hoping I'll retaliate. After about 10 days, you'll have me wondering if at least one of you is a male. And then, voila, peak trans.

Nice try. It isn't going to happen.

 

[Louden Wilde]

There was a pretty famous case of a mother who had chimerism (otherwise totally normal except for her DNA).
But you are right that I don't think it could happen with mixed sexes.

Woman is her own twin:
https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/shes-twin/story?id=2315693



eta:
Transgnderism, does seem to have a genetic concordance (ident vs fraternal twin studies) but there is no concordance with any of the genes we know to be sex determinants. Science knows when those go wrong, arent expressed, are absent, doubled, etc... and those people are not more likely to be trans. So it is some other combo of things.

As I recall (from the paper I found- noted earlier in the thread), concordance between MZ twins was ~30%, so a major environmental component.

 

[Dismember]

Interesting strategy that you, Emily's Cat, and Rolfe seem to have. You found out from me that I'm a post-structuralist, so you infer (correctly) that I don't believe in stereotypes. You play up a female stereotype to a ridiculous degree so I start to doubt who you are -- which you encourage by doubting who I am and hoping I'll retaliate. After about 10 days, you'll have me wondering if at least one of you is a male. And then, voila, peak trans.

Nice try. It isn't going to happen.

Some serious conspiratorial thinking and paranoia here.

 

[Matthew Best]

We had a previous thread on this topic here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31406

For some reason it didn't catch on as much as this time.

 

[theprestige]

Interesting strategy that you, Emily's Cat, and Rolfe seem to have. You found out from me that I'm a post-structuralist, so you infer (correctly) that I don't believe in stereotypes. You play up a female stereotype to a ridiculous degree so I start to doubt who you are

You really should read the thread. And the rest of the forum. Rolfe and EC have been coding as emphatically female since long before you joined this discussion. Nothing about their behavior or presentation has changed since your post-structuralist revelation.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that nobody here gives a fraction of a tinker's that you think you're post-structuralist, or what you think that means.

Also, if you don't believe in stereotypes, then why are you interpreting Rolfe's and EC's presentation in terms of stereotypes? Shouldn't post-structuralism tell you that the perceived stereotype isn't real, and that these are just actual women expressing their actual valid lived experience?

Also, questioning their presentation of their womanhood as being stereotypical and insincere seems to fall towards the toxic end of the toxic namecalling spectrum. Whatever the balance of toxicity before you joined, you're definitely shifting it towards the TRAs with these contributions.

 

[Butter!]

I think at this point that Collin must be 2 or 3 different people. Just repeat any question from 12 hours ago and you'll get a different answer.
It will totally work, because none of them read the thread.

(apologies to Butter if my thorough scientific analysis sounds like snark)

No, I agree. I actually think he's a troll now. His post about "porn" was what convinced me.

I did say the title was likely to attract negative attention...