Cont: Trump’s Coup - Part 2

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The problem here is the divergence of information sources into two groups, and the dedication of each group of information sources to serving its own cause.

When I was growing up, I was told more right-sided stuff than left-sided stuff; nothing wildly extreme, but enough that left-sided sources tended to run into the "this contradicts what I've been told before" challenge. But I went out of my way to try to pick up the other side's case.

They'd say someone at Fox had said a certain thing. I'd check. That person at Fox actually hadn't said the thing.

They'd say Rush Limbaugh had said a certain thing. I'd check. Limbaugh actually hadn't said the thing.

They'd say President Bush had said or done a certain thing. I'd check. Bush actually hadn't said or done the thing.

They'd say something about a certain law or a court case. I'd check. The law didn't say what they said it said and what happened in the court case wasn't what they'd said had happened.

They'd say something about a particular scientific study or survey. I'd check. The study/survey hadn't found what they'd said it had found.

It wasn't just the news sources. I never did join a politics forum, but some that I did join had a political section. I'd try interacting with Democrats/liberals/progressives there. They'd tell me that my argument was something I hadn't argued. They'd tell me I felt things I didn't feel. I'd explain repeatedly what my positions actually were and they'd ignore it and respond as if trying to convince my that I simply must think & feel what they apparently wanted me to because some other thing they'd heard somewhere else about monsters like me proved it, like a Christian telling an atheist that atheists really know that God is real because Romans 1 says they do. They'd pile on more of the usual claims about famous figures & issues. I got tired of checking because I'd learned what the outcome always was.

I wasn't even conservative, but kept ending up on the side of discussions/arguments that the lefties called conservative anyway, just because I wanted sound rational arguments from them and the ones I kept getting instead were always either obvious lies (particularly false accusations about me/us, thrown at me as if I could possibly be fooled about myself) or at least potentially honest but then just inane blithering nonsense.

What would be your assessment of the information sources of the people who kept trotting out the same worn-out false accusations & other lies at every turn like that? It would push you farther away from those claims & sources, and more against the people who used them. And then, once you know that the other side's information sources are worthless and their claims are worthless, there's only one side left for you to get your information from.

There's nothing stupid about disregarding what you're told by sources that have repeatedly proven themselves false (not to mention hostile) and accepting what you're told by the ones that haven't. There are a couple of mistakes in that process, but they're subtle ones that you don't need to be stupid to slip on. (For example, the principle that if people had a better argument for their case then they'd use it so the fact that they only spout lies & nonsense indicates that their side doesn't have anything better; it seems pretty simple & straightforward but it's not totally reliable.)

Um...yeah. Uh-huh. This is the latest I was able to find on comparing who tends to lie the most according to Politifact (as of Jan. 27, 2015) :

Fox and Fox News: 60% of the claims we’ve checked have been rated Mostly False or worse.

MSNBC and NBC: 44% of claims have received a rating of Mostly False or worse.

CNN : 20% of claims have received a rating of Mostly False or worse.
 
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And that's an example of the kind of dishonesty I'm talking about right there. Why pretend I said what you know perfectly well I didn't say?

I apologise if I misunderstood but I took the following......

They'd say someone at Fox had said a certain thing. I'd check. That person at Fox actually hadn't said the thing.

They'd say Rush Limbaugh had said a certain thing. I'd check. Limbaugh actually hadn't said the thing.

They'd say President Bush had said or done a certain thing. I'd check. Bush actually hadn't said or done the thing.

They'd say something about a certain law or a court case. I'd check. The law didn't say what they said it said and what happened in the court case wasn't what they'd said had happened.

They'd say something about a particular scientific study or survey. I'd check. The study/survey hadn't found what they'd said it had found.

To mean that you were claiming that sources used by those on the left were routinely, indeed always, incorrect. It would have been nice if you'd provided actual examples.
 
I apologise if I misunderstood but I took the following......



To mean that you were claiming that sources used by those on the left were routinely, indeed always, incorrect. It would have been nice if you'd provided actual examples.
And you'll get 'em, damn it!
(In two weeks. [emoji53] )
 
I apologise if I misunderstood but I took the following......



To mean that you were claiming that sources used by those on the left were routinely, indeed always, incorrect. It would have been nice if you'd provided actual examples.

You had to have misunderstood because FOX and Rush Limbaugh, especially, are noted for their truthiness.
 
I don't imagine there were many, if any, bright people who entered the Capitol with the crowd. I don't think all Trump supporters are like the people on the Mall that day.

But I was struck by how few of them actually entered the Senate chamber. There were a handful, even as video taken at the same time showed hundreds of people roaming the halls nearby. I think a lot of the crowd may have decided that going into the Senate Chamber was going just a little bit too far. They thought they could get away with just being in the building, but they realized entering the actual Senate chamber was crossing a line, which showed some measure of intelligence.

The ones who actually went in? They were dumb as Trumps.

FTFY

Dumb as a Trump becoming part of the lexicon would be a fitting legacy for his whole existence. Dunning-Kruger on steroids
 
The problem here is the divergence of information sources into two groups, and the dedication of each group of information sources to serving its own cause.

Quite true. Although there are differences in degree.

When I was growing up, I was told more right-sided stuff than left-sided stuff; nothing wildly extreme, but enough that left-sided sources tended to run into the "this contradicts what I've been told before" challenge. But I went out of my way to try to pick up the other side's case.

They'd say someone at Fox had said a certain thing. I'd check. That person at Fox actually hadn't said the thing.

In my opinion, based on much reading about Fox. Fox is pretty bad on accuracy, and Fox news routinely has people on it say really stupid crap and nonsense. How about all the election conspiracy crap for example.

They'd say Rush Limbaugh had said a certain thing. I'd check. Limbaugh actually hadn't said the thing.

The truth and Rush are light years away from each other. Rush in the past and today routinely says stupid nonsense.

They'd say President Bush had said or done a certain thing. I'd check. Bush actually hadn't said or done the thing.

Bush Jr's record speaks for itself and it isn't pretty.

They'd say something about a certain law or a court case. I'd check. The law didn't say what they said it said and what happened in the court case wasn't what they'd said had happened.

Yawn. Just like the "Conservative" media accurately described the Russian investigation and Mueller Report. (Snark)

They'd say something about a particular scientific study or survey. I'd check. The study/survey hadn't found what they'd said it had found.

I guess the routine lies in "Conservative" media about climate change and the promotion of many of them of Creationistic doesn't exist. And they do the exact thing you have described above routinely.

It wasn't just the news sources. I never did join a politics forum, but some that I did join had a political section. I'd try interacting with Democrats/liberals/progressives there. They'd tell me that my argument was something I hadn't argued. They'd tell me I felt things I didn't feel. I'd explain repeatedly what my positions actually were and they'd ignore it and respond as if trying to convince my that I simply must think & feel what they apparently wanted me to because some other thing they'd heard somewhere else about monsters like me proved it, like a Christian telling an atheist that atheists really know that God is real because Romans 1 says they do. They'd pile on more of the usual claims about famous figures & issues. I got tired of checking because I'd learned what the outcome always was.

Isn't it amazing how differently people can think about the world. The above paragraph describes exactly how I have been treated by so-called "Conservatives", who would routinely lie, distort and twist what I say and when I would check their claims I would find a vast swamp of distortion and lies.

I wasn't even conservative, but kept ending up on the side of discussions/arguments that the lefties called conservative anyway, just because I wanted sound rational arguments from them and the ones I kept getting instead were always either obvious lies (particularly false accusations about me/us, thrown at me as if I could possibly be fooled about myself) or at least potentially honest but then just inane blithering nonsense.

I got inane blithering nonsense all the time from so-called "Conservatives", usually accusations I was a "Communist", a "Marxist", "Cultural" or otherwise. THat I would burn in hell etc. And a bucketful of utter lies.

What would be your assessment of the information sources of the people who kept trotting out the same worn-out false accusations & other lies at every turn like that? It would push you farther away from those claims & sources, and more against the people who used them. And then, once you know that the other side's information sources are worthless and their claims are worthless, there's only one side left for you to get your information from.

The above describes my experience with so-called "Conservatives" and their sources exactly. Full of false accusations and lies. (Just read The Epoch Times.) The sheer amount of worthless sources was amazing. (Breitbart anyone.)

There's nothing stupid about disregarding what you're told by sources that have repeatedly proven themselves false (not to mention hostile) and accepting what you're told by the ones that haven't. There are a couple of mistakes in that process, but they're subtle ones that you don't need to be stupid to slip on. (For example, the principle that if people had a better argument for their case then they'd use it so the fact that they only spout lies & nonsense indicates that their side doesn't have anything better; it seems pretty simple & straightforward but it's not totally reliable.)

In my experience so-called "Conservatives" use sources that routinely distort and lie and have been proven false over and over again. Has for spouting nonsense and lies, well that has been a pet project of people like Rush and Alex and so much so-called "Conservative" media. To me it is simply straightforward that so-called "Conservative" media is full of bull crap. (As indicated by their recent coverage of imaginary Election "fraud".)

Truly we are seeing here two versions of reality.
 
I guess it's all in how you interpret 'stupid'. I've known a couple people who had average IQ's but, lordy lordy, they were stooooopid. They had no common sense, were illogical and made the same mistakes over and over again. They just never learned. I had to cut ties with one of them because I became so frustrated over watching her make the same stupid mistakes over and over again that I just couldn't take it anymore.

I won’t stoop to “Argumentum Ad Dictionarium”, but it sure seems like you’re attempting to redefine “stupid” to mean someone who “makes mistakes” - in your example makes life choices you disagree with.

It further seems like if I came up with a study showing the Capitol rioters were in fact of above average intelligence, you’d reply they were stupid regardless. As such, I don’t see any point in discussing it further.
 
I won’t stoop to “Argumentum Ad Dictionarium”, but it sure seems like you’re attempting to redefine “stupid” to mean someone who “makes mistakes” - in your example makes life choices you disagree with.

It further seems like if I came up with a study showing the Capitol rioters were in fact of above average intelligence, you’d reply they were stupid regardless. As such, I don’t see any point in discussing it further.

Well yes. Because "facts" are things that exist.

The "Oh so you're just saying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid" cop-out ignore the fact that "factually correct" and "factually incorrect" are standards that can be applied, or at least they used to be before we all just decided that wasn't a thing anymore.

There is no deep state. There was no election fraud. Joe Biden will be the President in about 26 hours or so. These are not matters of opinion. They are not matters of perspective.

If you disagree, you are wrong. And I get we're deep in some nested meta-debate about it right now for some reason but when people intentionally believe incorrect things... what are we supposed to call it?
 
The problem here is the divergence of information sources into two groups, and the dedication of each group of information sources to serving its own cause. (...)

And that's an example of the kind of dishonesty I'm talking about right there. Why pretend I said what you know perfectly well I didn't say?

You said two groups are same when they are not same. Now you are denying that. Now who is dishonest here?
 
You said two groups are same when they are not same. Now you are denying that. Now who is dishonest here?

The irony is he probably doesn't think it's him.

People have honestly started to buy into the mythology of the "I didn't say that using those exact words, therefore unless you respond to nothing but the exact words you're somehow doing something wrong.

Again inference is a thing. People are allowed to pick up for tone and context. I'll never understand when internet argumentatives up and decided that was something you could do.
 
Arguing against, it appears many of them came from professions a truly stupid person would have trouble getting into.

I think that's a good point You don't get through law school without at least a couple of spare IQ points. There must have been some intelligent people in the Capitol that day.

But I'm also guessing that there were some people who just weren't too bright, and some of those people were talking on that video. I'm guessing Mr. Shaman guy didn't actually graduate from Divinity school.
 
There are certainly some, even most that are unreachable. So were many of my sales prospects. But not all. I just know when you start the discussion with "you're stupid", chances of closing the sale are slim and none.

I'm looking at changing the minds of maybe 15 percent of them.

While we're on the topic--what might be the preferred approach for someone who I'll call a "troll-hybrid". They're eager to persuade anyone who'll listen to them of whatever nuttiness they're spouting, but when their facts or arguments are challenged they treat the entire conversation like it's all a big gag and nothing matters.
 
While we're on the topic--what might be the preferred approach for someone who I'll call a "troll-hybrid". They're eager to persuade anyone who'll listen to them of whatever nuttiness they're spouting, but when their facts or arguments are challenged they treat the entire conversation like it's all a big gag and nothing matters.
I don't know... Poe Trolling?
I'm sure it's what our Bubba has shifted to since the election. You can see his heart just isn't into it, so it gets nuttier and nuttier.
 
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We've seen a lot of variations on "No I'm not a troll, I'm Poe, no wait not a Poe I'm doing a performance art parody of a Poe of a troll...."

Basically people are trying to figure out how many layers of detached irony you can pile on top of being an ******* before it no longer counts as being an *******.
 
We've seen a lot of variations on "No I'm not a troll, I'm Poe, no wait not a Poe I'm doing a performance art parody of a Poe of a troll...."

Basically people are trying to figure out how many layers of detached irony you can pile on top of being an ******* before it no longer counts as being an *******.

A **** is a **** no matter what rule they are following.......
 
I think that's a good point You don't get through law school without at least a couple of spare IQ points. There must have been some intelligent people in the Capitol that day.

But I'm also guessing that there were some people who just weren't too bright, and some of those people were talking on that video. I'm guessing Mr. Shaman guy didn't actually graduate from Divinity school.

Does it require above average intelligence?
 
While we're on the topic--what might be the preferred approach for someone who I'll call a "troll-hybrid". They're eager to persuade anyone who'll listen to them of whatever nuttiness they're spouting, but when their facts or arguments are challenged they treat the entire conversation like it's all a big gag and nothing matters.

A New-Zealander?



:boxedin:
 
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