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Trump's Coup d'état.

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dudalb said:
Head of Proud Boys busted by DC police on a illegal weapons ;alos to be charged with burning that BLM banner taken from a church with a petty theft charge probably thrown in.
Man, it's so tought to be a Noble Aryan Warrior nowdays.....
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Systemic white racism.
 
I haven't checked yet, but I wonder what Jimmy Dore and the Hill gang are saying about this? "Look, people! 'Donald Trump' is NOT the problem ... "
 
I'm still trying to get my head around the results certification process. Ignoring any stray legal challenges there appear to be at least four possible barriers to Joe Biden being certified as President on the 6th:

  • The House of Representatives and Senate refusing to accept the results - a very long shot but there seems to be a significant minority of GOP representatives in favour of this course of action.
  • The demand from 12 GOP senators for a commission to investigate the vote and the results - unlikely to succeed unless the whole of the GOP in the Senate get behind it (though stranger things have happened :o)
  • Individual states sending through their own lists of electors which differ from those expected from the election result - is this even a real thing ?
  • The "Domino" approach to overturning results. If the GOP wins both of the Georgia Senate races then can they overturn the Presidential election result ? Could this lead to other results being overturned ?

What I don't know is whether these are just desperate attempts by a few GOP representatives to defy democracy or are the GOP trying each of these things in turn and will then suddenly unify behind the approach which gets the most traction ?

In other words, death or incapacity aside, is Joe Biden 100% certain of being President on 20th January or does the GOP still have a chance of overturning the result ?
 
There is no chance in hell of them overturning the election. Biden will be sworn in on Jan. 20th.

The House is controlled by the Dems and the Senate doesn't have enough GOP who will vote to overturn it either.
 
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In both House and Senate, there is a clear majority in favour of certifying that Biden won.

It's just posturing at this moment. They may drag it out for a day or two, but that's it.

The Don said:
What I don't know is whether these are just desperate attempts by a few GOP representatives to defy democracy or are the GOP trying each of these things in turn and will then suddenly unify behind the approach which gets the most traction ?
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The GOP will certainly learn from this failed attempt what they should do "better" next time.
My guess is that they will try to give the State Legislatures a role in certification after the presidential election.
 
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The Don said:
I'm still trying to get my head around the results certification process. Ignoring any stray legal challenges there appear to be at least four possible barriers to Joe Biden being certified as President on the 6th:

  • The House of Representatives and Senate refusing to accept the results - a very long shot but there seems to be a significant minority of GOP representatives in favour of this course of action.
  • The demand from 12 GOP senators for a commission to investigate the vote and the results - unlikely to succeed unless the whole of the GOP in the Senate get behind it (though stranger things have happened :o)
  • Individual states sending through their own lists of electors which differ from those expected from the election result - is this even a real thing ?
  • The "Domino" approach to overturning results. If the GOP wins both of the Georgia Senate races then can they overturn the Presidential election result ? Could this lead to other results being overturned ?

What I don't know is whether these are just desperate attempts by a few GOP representatives to defy democracy or are the GOP trying each of these things in turn and will then suddenly unify behind the approach which gets the most traction ?

In other words, death or incapacity aside, is Joe Biden 100% certain of being President on 20th January or does the GOP still have a chance of overturning the result ?
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i think it's just an insane game of chicken they are playing against themselves. people who, no doubt, want to be declared the next Trump. and what's more trumpy than doing exactly what trump says
 
The Don said:
I'm still trying to get my head around the results certification process. Ignoring any stray legal challenges there appear to be at least four possible barriers to Joe Biden being certified as President on the 6th:



  • The House of Representatives and Senate refusing to accept the results - a very long shot but there seems to be a significant minority of GOP representatives in favour of this course of action.
  • The demand from 12 GOP senators for a commission to investigate the vote and the results - unlikely to succeed unless the whole of the GOP in the Senate get behind it (though stranger things have happened :o)
  • Individual states sending through their own lists of electors which differ from those expected from the election result - is this even a real thing ?
  • The "Domino" approach to overturning results. If the GOP wins both of the Georgia Senate races then can they overturn the Presidential election result ? Could this lead to other results being overturned ?



What I don't know is whether these are just desperate attempts by a few GOP representatives to defy democracy or are the GOP trying each of these things in turn and will then suddenly unify behind the approach which gets the most traction ?



In other words, death or incapacity aside, is Joe Biden 100% certain of being President on 20th January or does the GOP still have a chance of overturning the result ?
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O'Connell had already made his position clear. Without Mitch's backing, Trump has nothing.
 
The Don said:
I'm still trying to get my head around the results certification process. Ignoring any stray legal challenges there appear to be at least four possible barriers to Joe Biden being certified as President on the 6th:

  • The House of Representatives and Senate refusing to accept the results - a very long shot but there seems to be a significant minority of GOP representatives in favour of this course of action.
  • The demand from 12 GOP senators for a commission to investigate the vote and the results - unlikely to succeed unless the whole of the GOP in the Senate get behind it (though stranger things have happened :o)
  • Individual states sending through their own lists of electors which differ from those expected from the election result - is this even a real thing ?
  • The "Domino" approach to overturning results. If the GOP wins both of the Georgia Senate races then can they overturn the Presidential election result ? Could this lead to other results being overturned ?

What I don't know is whether these are just desperate attempts by a few GOP representatives to defy democracy or are the GOP trying each of these things in turn and will then suddenly unify behind the approach which gets the most traction ?

In other words, death or incapacity aside, is Joe Biden 100% certain of being President on 20th January or does the GOP still have a chance of overturning the result ?
Click to expand...

It's just politics show business. Trump is very popular among Republicans. Now Trump will be gone. Trump supporters will have to put their support to someone else. Some members of Congress want to get that support. They want to show that they fought for Trump in order to get their support once Trump is gone.

The Cruz plan to form a commission for a 10-audit can't happen. It would require an Act of Congress. No such bill was on the floor on Sunday. The Senate and House agreed to count votes at 1:00 PM on Wednesday. And the Senate agreed to adjourn until 12:30 PM Wednesday. No bill can be passed in that time, and no bills at all can be passed while the vote count is under way.

An objection to electoral votes can only be sustained if approved by both Hoses. The Senate has a Republican majority but most likely will largely vote against that. The House has a Democratic majority that will not approve. So that isn't going to happen.

The fake electoral vote certificates will not count. Pence could simply dismiss them. Or it might go to a House and Senate vote, which will extremely likely accept the real certificates. The House certainly will. If the Senate does not, the law says it defaults to the certificate from the Governor, so it doesn't matter anyway.

I don't understand your last point. The Senate already has a Republican majority and will have a majority on Wednesday. Republicans will maintain that majority unless Democrats win both Senate races in the Georgia run-off election.

The only way Biden is verified a President is if Pence decides to get up to some major funny business. As President of the Senate, Pence preside of the counting of votes. Because the counting of votes is a unique process and for various reasons there are not rules established for some of the details of the procedures. If Pence wanted to, he could cause trouble; although that would likely lead to a constitutional crises and likely civil war. Pence refused to sing on with a lawsuit that would give him that power and actually opposed that lawsuit. So it seems unlikely that he will take that dangerous path.
 
The Don said:
  • The "Domino" approach to overturning results. If the GOP wins both of the Georgia Senate races then can they overturn the Presidential election result ? Could this lead to other results being overturned ?
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I think you may have conflated the Georgia Senate runoff with Trump's attempt to browbeat the Georgia Secretary of State into changing the Presidential election numbers. The domino hypothesis here is that, if Raffensperger gave in to Trump and "found" another 11,800 votes, Trump would then claim that he was right all along to claim that there was election fraud, and demand similar concessions in Arizona, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Senate runoff is irrelevant to this, and there won't be a result from it soon enough to affect the counting of the EC votes.

Dave
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I don't understand your last point. The Senate already has a Republican majority and will have a majority on Wednesday. Republicans will maintain that majority unless Democrats win both Senate races in the Georgia run-off election.
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My point here is that the GOP has been claiming that there's all kind of jiggery-pokery gone on to prevent President Trump being re-elected.

If the Georgia Senate runoff returns GOP senators with an increased proportion of the vote then the GOP will claim that this represents the "true" will of the people of Georgia and the Presidential vote was tainted.

They may be able to persuade the Georgia legislature to overturn their vote.

Essentially what you were saying a few hours ago - but with the runoff results as the "evidence"

DevilsAdvocate said:
If he got Georgia to flip, he has proof that his claims of voter fraud were correct all along. He would tell these other states that he has been saying they had voter fraud and now Georgia confirmed his claims and his claims are true in other states as well.

Even if those states don't go for it, he can bring it to Congress. Tell them they were about to confirm the Georgia electoral votes even under objection and now it has been proven that they were wrong. They were going to approve invalid votes. He would try to convince member of Congress that they are about to make the same grave error for the other contested states.

Maybe get them to go with the Cruz plan for a 10-day audit. Or at least get the to reject the votes from the contested states to get Biden under 270. Then have Pence declare that the "whole number of electors" is actually 538 and not 538 minus the rejected votes and declare nobody got a majority, sending it to the House.

Or failing that, ask the Supreme Court to expedite the pending case now that a state has confirmed election fraud. And so on...
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unless I completely misunderstood the point you were making :o



DevilsAdvocate said:
The only way Biden is verified a President is if Pence decides to get up to some major funny business. As President of the Senate, Pence preside of the counting of votes. Because the counting of votes is a unique process and for various reasons there are not rules established for some of the details of the procedures. If Pence wanted to, he could cause trouble; although that would likely lead to a constitutional crises and likely civil war. Pence refused to sing on with a lawsuit that would give him that power and actually opposed that lawsuit. So it seems unlikely that he will take that dangerous path.
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Then again, Pence has applauded the actions of the "dirty dozen". :(
 
Dave Rogers said:
I think you may have conflated the Georgia Senate runoff with Trump's attempt to browbeat the Georgia Secretary of State into changing the Presidential election numbers. The domino hypothesis here is that, if Raffensperger gave in to Trump and "found" another 11,800 votes, Trump would then claim that he was right all along to claim that there was election fraud, and demand similar concessions in Arizona, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. The Senate runoff is irrelevant to this, and there won't be a result from it soon enough to affect the counting of the EC votes.

Dave
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I'm suggesting that, because the Georgia state officials won't find the extra votes in the Presidential election results, they'll be "found" in the runoff results instead.
 
The Don said:
My point here is that the GOP has been claiming that there's all kind of jiggery-pokery gone on to prevent President Trump being re-elected.

If the Georgia Senate runoff returns GOP senators with an increased proportion of the vote then the GOP will claim that this represents the "true" will of the people of Georgia and the Presidential vote was tainted.

They may be able to persuade the Georgia legislature to overturn their vote.
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I see. Georgia run-off election in Tuesday. It is likely to be a very close race and will probably have recounts and not be settled for days or even weeks.

Electoral vote count is Wednesday at 1 PM. The run-off election probably won't even be counted and certified by that time. Even if it was and both Republican candidates won, that wouldn't persuade the Georgia legislature to overturn the Biden victory. I don't think the legislature is even in session. Even if they were, they wouldn't be able to overturn the Presidential votes under the Georgia Constitution. Even if they were, overturning Georgia would not get Trump enough votes or even take away enough votes for Biden. And there wouldn't be any time, or really any possibilities, for a bunch of other states to overturn their elections to change the outcome.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I see. Georgia run-off election in Tuesday. It is likely to be a very close race and will probably have recounts and not be settled for days or even weeks.

Electoral vote count is Wednesday at 1 PM. The run-off election probably won't even be counted and certified by that time. Even if it was and both Republican candidates won, that wouldn't persuade the Georgia legislature to overturn the Biden victory. I don't think the legislature is even in session. Even if they were, they wouldn't be able to overturn the Presidential votes under the Georgia Constitution. Even if they were, overturning Georgia would not get Trump enough votes or even take away enough votes for Biden. And there wouldn't be any time, or really any possibilities, for a bunch of other states to overturn their elections to change the outcome.
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Good :) :thumbsup:
 
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