Trump's Coup d'état.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Amused on several on the left here showing theri complet contempt for the American people. Shades of The Party Member's attitude toward the Proles in "1984".

Who here on either side is showing "complet[e] contempt for the American people"?

 

[Butter!]

Sorry about my little outburst a few pages back, y'all. I've just been dealing with so much anxiety, whether or not it's realistic, I don't know. But I just overflow sometimes.

I do have anecdotal evidence that many Trumpers are losing steam, though. All the Trumpy people at my office were suuuuuper fired up the day after Biden's win was announced, banging on about "all the fraud that's happening," and making me want to put a stapler through my brain. Over the next few days/weeks, they just kind of stopped talking about it. They hate Biden, but they've also moved on to the next Facebook drama. They're all proud Trump-supporters, but they're certainly not going to be taking up any arms or tearing down any power lines. They're too busy with their lives. Politics is a kind of entertainment for them, more than anything. Almost like a really big sports match.

However, I bet if you polled the people I'm taking about today, they'd probably still check "Trump won, Biden cheated, Dems bad!" Because it feels good to them to say that stuff, even though there's some serious cognitive dissonance there too.

My point, insofar as I have one, is that just because people are saying they're ready to revolt doesn't mean enough actually are to take down the nation. This is entertainment to a lot of people. Hopefully...

 

[Galaxie]

Amused on several on the left here showing theri complet contempt for the American people. Shades of The Party Member's attitude toward the Proles in "1984".

Who here on either side is showing "complet[e] contempt for the American people"?

Yeah, I don't get dudalb's post either

 

[acbytesla]

At the end of the day, everything we say about what might happen if Pence, or someone, pulls a stunt like this, is just speculation. We only really know what we would do if/when that happens, what anyone else might do is a matter of guesswork.

Every American here needs to ask themselves that one question: If this happens, am I willing to go to war over it? If your answer is "No", then you might as well stop worrying about what anyone else might do.

Non-Americans should start asking themselves about things like economic sanctions. Am I, as a Canadian, willing to devastate our own economy trying to affect the US via economic sanctions? I'd say "Yes", if enough Americans were willing to step up themselves. Otherwise, not so much.

It's a totally bizarre reading of the 12th Amendment.

If the VP Pence had the power that the Trump supporters suggest, then Charles Curtis could have given Hoover a second term instead of FDR. Alben Barkley could have made Adlai Stevenson President instead of Eisenhower. Nixon could have made himself President in 1960. Humphrey also could have made himself President instead of Nixon in 1968, Rockefeller could have given Ford a second term. Mondale could have given Carter one too. Quayle could have given Bush a second term. Gore could have made himself President. Cheney could have given the Presidency to McCain and finally Biden could have made Hillary President four years ago.

 

[Horatius]

It's a totally bizarre reading of the 12th Amendment.

If "That doesn't make any ******* sense" was actually a useful argument, we would have never gotten as deep into the **** as we currently are.

 

[acbytesla]

If "That doesn't make any ******* sense" was actually a useful argument, we would have never gotten as deep into the **** as we currently are.

If we're going to totally ignore the law, then nothing makes sense.

If you read the 12th Amendment, it contains an elaborate description of the electoral vote process from the the certification to the EC meeting to how the documents are sealed. Why bother with all that in the text of the amendment if the VP can ignore all that in the count?

 

[Ladewig]

Many Americans are utterly full of **** in their posturing, IMO. Its the downside to being fat and entertained. I have faith that if a real threat to our democracy reared its ugly head, the posing would abruptly cease.

But the question is how many people believe that Biden taking office is a real threat to our democracy.

On this board you will find many people who will say “Ah, I was not aware of that piece of evidence; I can now see that I was wrong.” But this board is most assuredly not representative of the US population.
Trump’s evidence amounts to 0.00000000, but that doesn’t stop tens of millions of Americans believing that every Republican governor, every Republican secretary of state, every Republican state-level attorney general, the Trump-appointed attorney general, the Justice Department, the FBI, and a host of other federal agencies are all working in concert with the Democrats to steal the election.

We've gone through four years of the dickheads finding their voice. A lot of play acting still going on, despite the very real trouble this administration has fathered. But it all went down plus or minus under democratic principles. If those are threatened, the weekend Trump flag waver would be cold-shocked out of his nationalistic stupor. At least I hope.

I share your hope.
But I’m not going to bet money on it.

ETA
We are in the midst of the greatest health crisis in the past 100 years. Many respected health-care professionals believe that if people would wear masks, limit contacts, and wash their hands then we could save 100,000 lives or more. Yet we have millions of people who believe that wearing a mask is a political statement and that it represents political correctness gone mad. I’ve talked to people who sincerely believe that on January 21, the media-created COVID crisis will abruptly end.

After the Kool-Aid has been drunk, it cannot be undrunk.

I do not think that metaphor is too strong to describe this situation.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

Pence doesn't read the certificates or vote counts. That is done by the tellers. There are four tellers consisting of a Representative from each party and a Senator from each party.

I think the order is majority Senator, majority Representative, minority Senator, minority Representative. So a Democratic Senator would read Arizona. But let's say for some reason it is a Republican and they read it as votes for Trump/Pence.

Technically the full certificate should be read, but except in some unusual cases the President of the Senate without objection waives reading the formal parts and just has the tellers read the vote count.

If a teller reads a vote count wrong, there would be a point of order to read the full certificate. There would probably be a request to have the Clerk enter the certificate into the Congressional Record.

If they still insisted that the certificate reads as votes for Trump/Pence even though it clearly does not, a Democrat Senator and Republican would file a written objection. It would go to a vote in the House and Senate. Under this scenario, the Senate would vote to not sustain the objection.

At some point during all this the Parliamentarian would likely weigh in and the Ethics Committee and Rules Committee would probably get dragged into it.

If the votes end up getting counted for Trump/Pence, it would likely go to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court usually stays out of these matters because it is up to Congress to regulate itself. But this is unusual because there is a law that limits when Congress can reject an electoral vote (this may be the only law that restricts Congress). That opens a door for the Supreme Court to rule that the law was not followed. It's a bit tricky because they wouldn't actually be rejecting a vote, but rather intentionally miscounting a vote. But the Supreme Court would probably weigh in on this case.

If the votes were upheld for Trump/Pence and they were declared the winners, it would be a Constitutional Crises. Likely many states would refuse to acknowledge the President or Federal government as legitimate. Other countries would likely follow suit. Some states would probably attempt to secede from the Union. It would be the collapse of the United States of America and likely lead to civil war.

Considering that this is the likely consequence of such actions, it is unlikely that all those parties will go along with it.

 

[Ladewig]

It's a totally bizarre reading of the 12th Amendment.

If the VP Pence had the power that the Trump supporters suggest, then Charles Curtis could have given Hoover a second term instead of FDR. Alben Barkley could have made Adlai Stevenson President instead of Eisenhower. Nixon could have made himself President in 1960. Humphrey also could have made himself President instead of Nixon in 1968, Rockefeller could have given Ford a second term. Mondale could have given Carter one too. Quayle could have given Bush a second term. Gore could have made himself President. Cheney could have given the Presidency to McCain and finally Biden could have made Hillary President four years ago.

I think we are nearing the point at which the Freemen on the Land are going to say, “Fun’s fun, but you Always-Trumpers need to dial down the craziness.”

 

[acbytesla]

Pence doesn't read the certificates or vote counts. That is done by the tellers. There are four tellers consisting of a Representative from each party and a Senator from each party.

I think the order is majority Senator, majority Representative, minority Senator, minority Representative. So a Democratic Senator would read Arizona. But let's say for some reason it is a Republican and they read it as votes for Trump/Pence.

Technically the full certificate should be read, but except in some unusual cases the President of the Senate without objection waives reading the formal parts and just has the tellers read the vote count.

If a teller reads a vote count wrong, there would be a point of order to read the full certificate. There would probably be a request to have the Clerk enter the certificate into the Congressional Record.

If they still insisted that the certificate reads as votes for Trump/Pence even though it clearly does not, a Democrat Senator and Republican would file a written objection. It would go to a vote in the House and Senate. Under this scenario, the Senate would vote to not sustain the objection.

At some point during all this the Parliamentarian would likely weigh in and the Ethics Committee and Rules Committee would probably get dragged into it.

If the votes end up getting counted for Trump/Pence, it would likely go to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court usually stays out of these matters because it is up to Congress to regulate itself. But this is unusual because there is a law that limits when Congress can reject an electoral vote (this may be the only law that restricts Congress). That opens a door for the Supreme Court to rule that the law was not followed. It's a bit tricky because they wouldn't actually be rejecting a vote, but rather intentionally miscounting a vote. But the Supreme Court would probably weigh in on this case.

If the votes were upheld for Trump/Pence and they were declared the winners, it would be a Constitutional Crises. Likely many states would refuse to acknowledge the President or Federal government as legitimate. Other countries would likely follow suit. Some states would probably attempt to secede from the Union. It would be the collapse of the United States of America and likely lead to civil war.

Considering that this is the likely consequence of such actions, it is unlikely that all those parties will go along with it.

You're discussing the modern day ceremony. Gohmert is saying that the 12th Amendment is the law. Not the law passed by Congress in the late 20th Century.

"The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;"

Still, where they get that this allows the Vice President to decide the slate of electors is beyond me.

 

[Paul2]

No it wouldn't. You're just making that up.

I’m assuming that the Dems would file a lawsuit that would eventually wind up at SCOTUS.

It goes to a vote. Both houses have to pass it. It won't happen. It wouldn't even pass in the Senate.

What goes to a vote? The only thing I’m aware of that goes to a vote on Jan 6 are objections to a particular state’s slate of electors. If you think something else goes to a vote, can you state it and even better cite US code or the Constitution?

 

[Elagabalus]

But the question is how many people believe that Biden taking office is a real threat to our democracy.

On this board you will find many people who will say “Ah, I was not aware of that piece of evidence; I can now see that I was wrong.” But this board is most assuredly not representative of the US population.
Trump’s evidence amounts to 0.00000000, but that doesn’t stop tens of millions of Americans believing that every Republican governor, every Republican secretary of state, every Republican state-level attorney general, the Trump-appointed attorney general, the Justice Department, the FBI, and a host of other federal agencies are all working in concert with the Democrats to steal the election.



I share your hope.
But I’m not going to bet money on it.

ETA
We are in the midst of the greatest health crisis in the past 100 years. Many respected health-care professionals believe that if people would wear masks, limit contacts, and wash their hands then we could save 100,000 lives or more. Yet we have millions of people who believe that wearing a mask is a political statement and that it represents political correctness gone mad. I’ve talked to people who sincerely believe that on January 21, the media-created COVID crisis will abruptly end.

After the Kool-Aid has been drunk, it cannot be undrunk.

I do not think that metaphor is too strong to describe this situation.

Currently, they are saying that they are going to be in D.C. on the 6th of January for "wild times" which appears to be yet another stop the steal rally.

https://generaldispatch.whatfinger....h-and-help-stop-the-steal/#comment-5204878107

The comments are a hoot!

 

[acbytesla]

I’m assuming that the Dems would file a lawsuit that would eventually wind up at SCOTUS.

What goes to a vote? The only thing I’m aware of that goes to a vote on Jan 6 are objections to a particular state’s slate of electors. If you think something else goes to a vote, can you state it and even better cite US code or the Constitution?

Here's the thing. The Vice President will have 51 envelopes sent registered mail from the 50 States and the District of Columbia. They will be signed by the Governors of each State and affixed with the State seals. (Not sure how DC is handled) The Vice President cannot just pull out some envelopes that don't have those markers and read off a false vote.

Keep in mind also that each State prepares IIRC 6 such envelopes sent to different Federal officials. Everyone KNOWS what the vote is.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Pence doesn't read the certificates or vote counts. That is done by the tellers. There are four tellers consisting of a Representative from each party and a Senator from each party.

I think the order is majority Senator, majority Representative, minority Senator, minority Representative. So a Democratic Senator would read Arizona. But let's say for some reason it is a Republican and they read it as votes for Trump/Pence.

Technically the full certificate should be read, but except in some unusual cases the President of the Senate without objection waives reading the formal parts and just has the tellers read the vote count.

If a teller reads a vote count wrong, there would be a point of order to read the full certificate. There would probably be a request to have the Clerk enter the certificate into the Congressional Record.

If they still insisted that the certificate reads as votes for Trump/Pence even though it clearly does not, a Democrat Senator and Republican would file a written objection. It would go to a vote in the House and Senate. Under this scenario, the Senate would vote to not sustain the objection.

At some point during all this the Parliamentarian would likely weigh in and the Ethics Committee and Rules Committee would probably get dragged into it.

If the votes end up getting counted for Trump/Pence, it would likely go to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court usually stays out of these matters because it is up to Congress to regulate itself. But this is unusual because there is a law that limits when Congress can reject an electoral vote (this may be the only law that restricts Congress). That opens a door for the Supreme Court to rule that the law was not followed. It's a bit tricky because they wouldn't actually be rejecting a vote, but rather intentionally miscounting a vote. But the Supreme Court would probably weigh in on this case.

If the votes were upheld for Trump/Pence and they were declared the winners, it would be a Constitutional Crises. Likely many states would refuse to acknowledge the President or Federal government as legitimate. Other countries would likely follow suit. Some states would probably attempt to secede from the Union. It would be the collapse of the United States of America and likely lead to civil war.

Considering that this is the likely consequence of such actions, it is unlikely that all those parties will go along with it.

Where is that highlighted crap in the law?

If the Republicans held significant* majorities in both the Senate and the House and they wanted to take over the government and install the POTUS of their choice we'd have been in a civil war long before it got to this ridiculous point.


*Significant because all the Republicans in Congress are not Trump Toadies.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I’m assuming that the Dems would file a lawsuit that would eventually wind up at SCOTUS.

See my above post.

What goes to a vote? The only thing I’m aware of that goes to a vote on Jan 6 are objections to a particular state’s slate of electors. If you think something else goes to a vote, can you state it and even better cite US code or the Constitution?

If one Senator and one Congressperson object to the electors in a state it goes to a 2 hour debate after which the House and the Senate vote separately on the case. Both Houses have to uphold tossing out a state's electors.

 

[Minoosh]

Sorry about my little outburst a few pages back, y'all. I've just been dealing with so much anxiety, whether or not it's realistic, I don't know. But I just overflow sometimes.

I've seen more than one poster express the idea that, if things really start to spiral downward, both in the U.S. and internationally, they're relieved to be 70 (or whatever), and won't live to see the worst of it.

That doesn't work as well if you're 32.

I am happy to hear that your coworkers are settling down. Trump's robots have quit calling my house for money; it stopped once the Electoral College voted. I think things might be OK, for now.

Sometimes when I wake up anxious in the middle of the night I sort of surf on the physical sensation, setting aside the things I'm worrying about, just feeling the muscle tension and the tightness in my chest, and sooner or later the wave breaks, bringing momentary relief ...

If that doesn't work I take a Xanax
(But those are tightly rationed)

 

[Elagabalus]

Sorry about my little outburst a few pages back, y'all. I've just been dealing with so much anxiety, whether or not it's realistic, I don't know. But I just overflow sometimes.

I do have anecdotal evidence that many Trumpers are losing steam, though. All the Trumpy people at my office were suuuuuper fired up the day after Biden's win was announced, banging on about "all the fraud that's happening," and making me want to put a stapler through my brain. Over the next few days/weeks, they just kind of stopped talking about it. They hate Biden, but they've also moved on to the next Facebook drama. They're all proud Trump-supporters, but they're certainly not going to be taking up any arms or tearing down any power lines. They're too busy with their lives. Politics is a kind of entertainment for them, more than anything. Almost like a really big sports match...

They shouldn't be talking about politics anyway. Rat them out to HR! That will teach them to heel!

 

[angrysoba]

Amused on several on the left here showing theri complet contempt for the American people. Shades of The Party Member's attitude toward the Proles in "1984".

Who here on either side is showing "complet[e] contempt for the American people"?

Yeah, I don't get dudalb's post either

It's one of dudalb's many drive-by sneers. Nobody ever really knows who he is sneering at. All that can be understood is that he wants people to think he is better than whoever that is.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's one of dudalb's many drive-by sneers. Nobody ever really knows who he is sneering at. All that can be understood is that he wants people to think he is better than whoever that is.

These "I'm not left or right" types tend to be that way. Some people believe being in the middle is the superior position in politics, that they're independent and not sucked into the extreme thinking of any side. However, they often do their best to stay in the middle no matter what.

 

[dudalb]

It's one of dudalb's many drive-by sneers. Nobody ever really knows who he is sneering at. All that can be understood is that he wants people to think he is better than whoever that is.

I would say if you said 80% of the American People would have no problem with an openly Nazi regime, that is being prety contemtopus of the American people.
I am beginning to get the sense that the political Left is above all criticism here. If