Trump's Coup d'état.

[Horatius]

Many Americans are utterly full of **** in their posturing, IMO. Its the downside to being fat and entertained. I have faith that if a real threat to our democracy reared its ugly head, the posing would abruptly cease.

We've gone through four years of the dickheads finding their voice. A lot of play acting still going on, despite the very real trouble this administration has fathered. But it all went down plus or minus under democratic principles. If those are threatened, the weekend Trump flag waver would be cold-shocked out of his nationalistic stupor. At least I hope.

At the end of the day, everything we say about what might happen if Pence, or someone, pulls a stunt like this, is just speculation. We only really know what we would do if/when that happens, what anyone else might do is a matter of guesswork.

Every American here needs to ask themselves that one question: If this happens, am I willing to go to war over it? If your answer is "No", then you might as well stop worrying about what anyone else might do.

Non-Americans should start asking themselves about things like economic sanctions. Am I, as a Canadian, willing to devastate our own economy trying to affect the US via economic sanctions? I'd say "Yes", if enough Americans were willing to step up themselves. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Trebuchet]

Christmas Chocolates? Hell no, I am on a diet and have lost 11.5 pounds!
As to why Gohmert gets elected, someone suggested something other than fluoride in the water. There's certainly no fluoride, Louie's constituents know it's a ChicCommie plot!

 

[Thermal]

At the end of the day, everything we say about what might happen if Pence, or someone, pulls a stunt like this, is just speculation. We only really know what we would do if/when that happens, what anyone else might do is a matter of guesswork.

Every American here needs to ask themselves that one question: If this happens, am I willing to go to war over it? If your answer is "No", then you might as well stop worrying about what anyone else might do.
Non-Americans should start asking themselves about things like economic sanctions. Am I, as a Canadian, willing to devastate our own economy trying to affect the US via economic sanctions? I'd say "Yes", if enough Americans were willing to step up themselves. Otherwise, not so much.

I don't think an all-out war is remotely likely. I think a massive show of public force is far more foreseeable, enough to forestall actual battle lines. The bad guys would have turncoat galore in their ranks, to the point of impotence. That's why Trump was so successful: he was never a live enough threat of actual insurrection. He was just enough to establish teams. If both teams were threatened, I'm pretty sure that patriotic fervor would find a new outlet.

 

[cosmicaug]

99% ?

There is absolutely nothing that any part of the federal government could do that would make 99% of the population have a united view.

If the Trump clan put on SS uniforms and Don Jon himself declared that he will be president for life, you’d be lucky to get 80% of the population to complain. And you’d be lucky to get 60% to agree on a course of action.

Many Americans are utterly full of **** in their posturing, IMO. Its the downside to being fat and entertained. I have faith that if a real threat to our democracy reared its ugly head, the posing would abruptly cease.

We've gone through four years of the dickheads finding their voice. A lot of play acting still going on, despite the very real trouble this administration has fathered. But it all went down plus or minus under democratic principles. If those are threatened, the weekend Trump flag waver would be cold-shocked out of his nationalistic stupor. At least I hope.

Why wouldn't you call this posturing?

I mean, sure, SS uniforms are kind of in bad taste. Best not give such folk the attention that they are seeking, though. The press needs to learn their lessons from the last 5 years.

As for Trump declaring himself president for life, he's made similar statements before. Surely he'd be joking.

 

[Elagabalus]

Christmas Chocolates? Hell no, I am on a diet and have lost 11.5 pounds!
As to why Gohmert gets elected, someone suggested something other than fluoride in the water. There's certainly no fluoride, Louie's constituents know it's a ChicCommie plot!

Sure! We believe you, Ivan!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

I don't think Pence announces any state's votes, he announces the totals.

And if those idiots object, that happens sooner and if either the House or the Senate vote to ignore the objection it is ignored. So it cannot possibly hold. It's all kabuki theater with Trump in the grifter's line. He gets yet more headlines. And the crowd of yahoos he keeps asking to show up might need to be shown their place.

 

[Elagabalus]

This isn’t a “dig” at the USA or USA folk but I remember on this forum many, many years ago many USA folk would disparage the UK form of government because of how much we rely on precedent and an “honour” system because we don’t have a “written” constitution like the USA did and how the USA written constitution protected the integrity of USA governance.

I think the last decade has shown that the USA relied much more on precedence and an honor system than many understood. Have the people with their hands on the levers of power who have no feeling of shame, no embarrassment, no personal integrity and precedent and honor are no longer enough.

Oh, yeah?!! Well, just wait until YOU have a uber-troll as Prime Minister .... oh .... wait ...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

On a political level? The Democrats scream "But you can't do that! The rules say so!" while appealing to some referee to this whole process that they still somehow beyond all limits and levels of sanity haven't learned doesn't exist to appeal to. Pelosi will probably "throw shade" that makes Twitter cream itself.

On the Board? The Trumpers who totally don't support Trump will come screaming out of the woodworks about why it's okay this is happening and why our actions are overdramatic. Bob will try to get someone to stop the discussion to explain to him what the word "government" means. ...

Where do you get this crap from?

 

[Thermal]

Why wouldn't you call this posturing?

I mean, sure, SS uniforms are kind of in bad taste. Best not give such folk the attention that they are seeking, though. The press needs to learn their lessons from the last 5 years.

As for Trump declaring himself president for life, he's made similar statements before. Surely he'd be joking.

Agreed, there is a line in there somewhere that is being toed, and toed-over at times. But talk is cheap. A lot of Trumpers are actually genuine Patriots at heart. They are just too full of the rhetoric while being well-fed and happy. If things go a little farther over the line, I still hold that they would remember what being American is all about.

 

[Horatius]

I don't think an all-out war is remotely likely.

It doesn't have to be likely, you just have to be willing to do it. In fact, being willing to do it makes it less likely for you to actually need to do it.

I think a massive show of public force is far more foreseeable, enough to forestall actual battle lines.

Yes, my preference would be for a nation-wide general strike, with people marching in the streets.

But such general strikes have been broken up by force before, and there's no reason to think they can't or won't be broken up by force in the future. As above, the only thing that could forestall that is a demonstrated willingness to use force of your own, at such a level that the opposition decides that the cost of winning will be too high.

The bad guys would have turncoat galore in their ranks, to the point of impotence.

Assumes facts not in evidence. As JoeMorgue is so fond of pointing out, we've gone through several iterations of "No way will his supporters let him do that!", and so far they've largely let him do that every time. There may be a few turncoats, but I'm not willing to assume there will be so many as to render them "impotent".

That's why Trump was so successful: he was never a live enough threat of actual insurrection. He was just enough to establish teams. If both teams were threatened, I'm pretty sure that patriotic fervor would find a new outlet.

Up until now, he didn't need "actual insurrection"; he was actually the president, as hard as that still is to believe. As such, the last four years don't really tell us much about what will happen when it comes to an actual insurrection.

The one thing we do know is that the level of rhetoric surrounding "actual insurrection" from Trump supporters is at levels unprecedented in our lives. More people, and more people in leadership positions, are openly talking about it, saying things that used to only be heard from the whacko fringe crowd. Now it's mainstream. This is all unprecedented.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

99% ?

There is absolutely nothing that any part of the federal government could do that would make 99% of the population have a united view.

If the Trump clan put on SS uniforms and Don Jon himself declared that he will be president for life, you’d be lucky to get 80% of the population to complain. And you’d be lucky to get 60% to agree on a course of action.

Come on. That's absurd.

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong.

 

[trustbutverify]

99% ?

There is absolutely nothing that any part of the federal government could do that would make 99% of the population have a united view.

If the Trump clan put on SS uniforms and Don Jon himself declared that he will be president for life, you’d be lucky to get 80% of the population to complain. And you’d be lucky to get 60% to agree on a course of action.

At least 30% of the population would approve, probably closer to 35%. Greenwald and the rest of his clown show would congratulate Trump for driving the entitled libtards crazy.

 

[Horatius]

Agreed, there is a line in there somewhere that is being toed, and toed-over at times. But talk is cheap. A lot of Trumpers are actually genuine Patriots at heart. They are just too full of the rhetoric while being well-fed and happy. If things go a little farther over the line, I still hold that they would remember what being American is all about.

Oh, sure, and there were a whole lot of Good Germans who never supported the gassing of the Jews.

Coming to your senses later doesn't fix the crap you did while you were nuts.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I don't think Pence announces any state's votes, he announces the totals.

And if those idiots object, that happens sooner and if either the House or the Senate vote to ignore the objection it is ignored. So it cannot possibly hold. It's all kabuki theater with Trump in the grifter's line. He gets yet more headlines. And the crowd of yahoos he keeps asking to show up might need to be shown their place.

I can see that any vote to object to the totals is bound to fail. That's why I wonder what would happen if the total announced by Pence was falsely stated in Trump's favour. The objection would therefore be in Biden's favour and would be carried in the House, but would enough Republican Senators actively vote to overturn a falsely stated result?

I hope that's something Pence wouldn't do, because it might well lead to something a lot like a civil war. But 'He just wouldn't do that' hasn't been a very safe bet lately.

Dave

 

[trustbutverify]

Why wouldn't you call this posturing?

I mean, sure, SS uniforms are kind of in bad taste. Best not give such folk the attention that they are seeking, though. The press needs to learn their lessons from the last 5 years.

As for Trump declaring himself president for life, he's made similar statements before. Surely he'd be joking.

It's just theater, for god's sake. I blame the MSM for obsessing over it while Snowden is still stuck in Russia pulling in a small fortune giving speeches to adoring crowds.

 

[Thermal]

It doesn't have to be likely, you just have to be willing to do it. In fact, being willing to do it makes it less likely for you to actually need to do it.





Yes, my preference would be for a nation-wide general strike, with people marching in the streets.

But such general strikes have been broken up by force before, and there's no reason to think they can't or won't be broken up by force in the future. As above, the only thing that could forestall that is a demonstrated willingness to use force of your own, at such a level that the opposition decides that the cost of winning will be too high.





Assumes facts not in evidence. As JoeMorgue is so fond of pointing out, we've gone through several iterations of "No way will his supporters let him do that!", and so far they've largely let him do that every time. There may be a few turncoats, but I'm not willing to assume there will be so many as to render them "impotent".





Up until now, he didn't need "actual insurrection"; he was actually the president, as hard as that still is to believe. As such, the last four years don't really tell us much about what will happen when it comes to an actual insurrection.

The one thing we do know is that the level of rhetoric surrounding "actual insurrection" from Trump supporters is at levels unprecedented in our lives. More people, and more people in leadership positions, are openly talking about it, saying things that used to only be heard from the whacko fringe crowd. Now it's mainstream. This is all unprecedented.

Truth with a capital T. Regarding an actual war (+/-), I've actually thought about this a lot, and at what point I would consider it tipped. And yes, I would be prepared personally to engage. In what capacity, I'm not sure. My family is first, so keeping the roof over their heads would like keep me from a lot of the fray. It would depend entirely how it played out, to determine what I would be able to do. Sitting back and hoping for the best would not be one of the options.

I hope that doesn't sound like cocky bravado. This is something that is always simmering on the back burner. The flag waving types don't interest me much. The patient and meticulous planners do. I can say without reservation that I would not stand by and watch my children's future be stepped on by a nationalist boot. Exactly how, I couldn't say right now.

 

[Paul2]

I can see that any vote to object to the totals is bound to fail. That's why I wonder what would happen if the total announced by Pence was falsely stated in Trump's favour. The objection would therefore be in Biden's favour and would be carried in the House, but would enough Republican Senators actively vote to overturn a falsely stated result?

I hope that's something Pence wouldn't do, because it might well lead to something a lot like a civil war. But 'He just wouldn't do that' hasn't been a very safe bet lately.

Dave

Those votes in the House and Senate are only for objecting to a particular state's slate of electors. I don't think there is a procedure for objecting to the overall total. In that case, I suspect it would go to the SCOTUS after the Dems filed a lawsuit.

 

[Thermal]

Oh, sure, and there were a whole lot of Good Germans who never supported the gassing of the Jews.

Coming to your senses later doesn't fix the crap you did while you were nuts.

That's exactly what I mean: I wouldn't expect a note-for-note replay of the Nazis rise to power. I would expect a very different and uniquely American scenario that wouldn't have such clear parallels.

The biggest thing I worry about is class divisiveness, as in keeping us po' folk infighting amongst ourselves. The battle won't be between R and D. It will be between Haves and Have-Nots, but the Haves will convince the Have-Nots to halve each other.

 

[dudalb]

Amused on several on the left here showing theri complet contempt for the American people. Shades of The Party Member's attitude toward the Proles in "1984".

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Those votes in the House and Senate are only for objecting to a particular state's slate of electors. I don't think there is a procedure for objecting to the overall total. In that case, I suspect it would go to the SCOTUS after the Dems filed a lawsuit.

No it wouldn't. You're just making that up.

It goes to a vote. Both houses have to pass it. It won't happen. It wouldn't even pass in the Senate.

If they want to object to the electors state by state there might be a delay of 10 hours or so.

No Senator is going to agree to an objection to all 50 states' electors. None of them is going to want to play a game of stalling the inevitable for 100 hours. I wonder if even one Senator will agree to the objection of 5 states' electors. One maybe, two, who knows. The crazy has infected some in the Senate.