Trump's Coup d'état.

[Firestone]

I'm not concerned Trump sycophants can overturn the election. So I'm looking forward to watching the top sycophant Pence squirm as he announces Biden is the POTUS elect.

Have you seen the swearing-in of Arizona Senator Mark Kelly by Pence?

Pence did it without theatre, very nicely.
You couldn't believe he was taking the oath of someone elected in an Arizona election Pence's own campaign was claiming right then in the courts was totally fraudulent.

I wouldn't be surprised he (outwardly) behaves himself on the 6th, which, as you suggest, will be fun to watch.

 

[Norman Alexander]

I'm not concerned Trump sycophants can overturn the election. So I'm looking forward to watching the top sycophant Pence squirm as he announces Biden is the POTUS elect.

No enjoyment involved on my part.

Have you seen the swearing-in of Arizona Senator Mark Kelly by Pence?

Pence did it without theatre, very nicely.
You couldn't believe he was taking the oath of someone elected in an Arizona election Pence's own campaign was claiming right then in the courts was totally fraudulent.

I wouldn't be surprised he (outwardly) behaves himself on the 6th, which, as you suggest, will be fun to watch.

Quick question: What happens if Pence suddenly becomes ill and cannot attend this ceremony? I understand the task falls then to the president of the Senate pro tempore, who is currently Chuck Grassley (R). Do you think Chuck would have the testicular fortitude to declare Donny departed in a nice loud voice?

 

[Dave Rogers]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

 

[slyjoe]

Trebuchet is obviously high on Xmas chocolates!

Mmmm, chocolates:

 

[Firestone]

Quick question: What happens if Pence suddenly becomes ill and cannot attend this ceremony? I understand the task falls then to the president of the Senate pro tempore, who is currently Chuck Grassley (R). Do you think Chuck would have the testicular fortitude to declare Donny departed in a nice loud voice?

My guess: yes.

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

That's one of the many weaknesses of this whole insane electoral system.

But in the real world, there is no Senate majority that wants Trump to remain president.
On the 6th, the Senate is 51 R- 48 D (Perdue isn't senator at that moment, pending certification of the Georgia run-offs).
Romney, Murkowski, Sasse, Toomey, Collins, Grassley, at the very least, won't go for a coup.
And I'm quite sure that McConnell, always playing the long game, won't go for it either.

ETA: and to be honest, I don't think Pence will lie about the outcome in swing states. Maybe he'll let Grassley do the job, or he will do it, without too much shenanigans.
Some Republican idiots may cause all kind of problems, sure, maybe even winning a day or two of delays. But that's all they will achieve.

(Hope I don't regret this post next week.)

 

[Norman Alexander]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

Surely someone will ask, perhaps through protocols, to examine the envelope and its contents, and its provenance.

We already know that the state of Arizona already formally sealed its EC votes for Biden. That result has been recorded six-fold in multiple places, including the results envelope sent to the Senate under severe lock and key. Signed, sealed and delivered.

The only ways Pence could then announce Arizona's votes for Trump would be for a massive fraud with the envelopes, or for Pence to brazenly lie in front of the world with his left nut out under the chopper.

As soon as it can be confirmed that what he announced was not what was sent, the silly game should collapse. It would be a stupid lie in front of everyone, and a giant breach of Senate protocol. I have no idea how the US Senate deals with such breaches, but I can imagine the responses would be both immediate and severe. Immediate expulsion from the chamber might be the least of these. The chopper would indeed come down...hard.

No, Pence won't do that.

 

[JoeMorgue]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

On a political level? The Democrats scream "But you can't do that! The rules say so!" while appealing to some referee to this whole process that they still somehow beyond all limits and levels of sanity haven't learned doesn't exist to appeal to. Pelosi will probably "throw shade" that makes Twitter cream itself.

On the Board? The Trumpers who totally don't support Trump will come screaming out of the woodworks about why it's okay this is happening and why our actions are overdramatic. Bob will try to get someone to stop the discussion to explain to him what the word "government" means.

In Society? Hard to tell. I haven't been able to really get my finger on the pulse of how most Americans understand this esoteric level of the Electoral Process.

Note I don't think any of that will actually happen because I don't think (yeah I know tempting fate and all) that the Republicans will try anything that brazen in the current environment. But the fact that we have to even have to ask "what if" is unpleasant and a bad precident for the future.

 

[angrysoba]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

You mean if he just decides to commit an act of electoral fraud right there and then with literally the whole thing weighing on his shoulders?

Usually when you try to do something that flagrantly illegal, you need some kind of plausible deniability. This would basically be him hoping that there is going to be a dictatorship for the rest of his days so that he can't be imprisoned or executed for his behaviour.

Nah! I think this one belongs solidly in the Black Mirror Universe.

 

[Craig4]

My guess: yes.
That's one of the many weaknesses of this whole insane electoral system.

But in the real world, there is no Senate majority that wants Trump to remain president.
On the 6th, the Senate is 51 R- 48 D (Perdue isn't senator at that moment, pending certification of the Georgia run-offs).
Romney, Murkowski, Sasse, Toomey, Collins, Grassley, at the very least, won't go for a coup.
And I'm quite sure that McConnell, always playing the long game, won't go for it either.

ETA: and to be honest, I don't think Pence will lie about the outcome in swing states. Maybe he'll let Grassley do the job, or he will do it, without too much shenanigans.
Some Republican idiots may cause all kind of problems, sure, maybe even winning a day or two of delays. But that's all they will achieve.

(Hope I don't regret this post next week.)

Pence really can't lie. If he reads votes different than what happened in that state's electoral college vote, Congress can object and ask for the certifications from the National Archive, the secretary of state/commonwealth, or the senior federal magistrate for the district where the state capitol is located or three other points that get copies. Six copies of the certifications are produced and sent to different places just in case a cheeky VP tries something.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Pence really can't lie. If he reads votes different than what happened in that state's electoral college vote, Congress can object and ask for the certifications from the National Archive, the secretary of state/commonwealth, or the senior federal magistrate for the district where the state capitol is located or three other points that get copies. Six copies of the certifications are produced and sent to different places just in case a cheeky VP tries something.

Hi I'd like to introduce you to my new friend "The Post Fact World."

If Pence says Trump won Arizona, reality will change to reflect that a shockingly large number of people.

All those "facts" that you think will save us were just planted there by the Deep State.

 

[Craig4]

Hi I'd like to introduce you to my new friend "The Post Fact World."

If Pence says Trump won Arizona, reality will change to reflect that a shockingly large number of people.

All those "facts" that you think will save us were just planted there by the Deep State.

In the mind of some perhaps but not when it comes to who will be the real next president. We're not at a point where Pence can declare something and make it so.

 

[Darat]

This isn’t a “dig” at the USA or USA folk but I remember on this forum many, many years ago many USA folk would disparage the UK form of government because of how much we rely on precedent and an “honour” system because we don’t have a “written” constitution like the USA did and how the USA written constitution protected the integrity of USA governance.

I think the last decade has shown that the USA relied much more on precedence and an honor system than many understood. Have the people with their hands on the levers of power who have no feeling of shame, no embarrassment, no personal integrity and precedent and honor are no longer enough.

 

[Ladewig]

Is Trump still sending out tweets like this Dec 19th one: “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!” ?

 

[Meadmaker]

OK, someone walk me through this:

Mike Pence opens the third envelope and announces, "Arizona, eleven votes for Donald Trump." Democratic members immediately object, a two hour debate is held, and the Senate overrules the objection.

Now what?

Dave

My take, added to others'.

Let me begin by saying that the above won't happen. This is a sort of alternate universe scenario.

The Democrats file suit against Mike Pence and maybe some other people, to be heard by the Supreme Court. The law in this case is blatantly obvious. Arizona has only one set of certified electoral votes, and they were won by Joe Biden, not by Donald Trump. So, the Supreme Court orders that the vote tallies be revised to show the correct, 306 for Biden, 232 for Trump, count of the votes.

Do Pence and the GOP legislators say at that, "Oh. Our bad. Biden wins."

In the scenario you have posited, they were willing to do blatantly illegal things and discard constitutional rule in the first place, so there's no reason to assume they would be willing to follow the Supreme Court ruling. At that point, it's a full blown coup, and the success or failure depends on what the generals do.

As I said, though, it won't happen. Donald Trump would throw the law on its head, and I suppose Louis Gohmert would, too, but the majority of the people of the United States, and an even bigger majority of Senators and Representatives, respect democracy and the Constitution, and are smart enough to not buy into all the idiotic fraud claims being made the President and his supporters.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This isn’t a “dig” at the USA or USA folk but I remember on this forum many, many years ago many USA folk would disparage the UK form of government because of how much we rely on precedent and an “honour” system because we don’t have a “written” constitution like the USA did and how the USA written constitution protected the integrity of USA governance.

I think the last decade has shown that the USA relied much more on precedence and an honor system than many understood. Have the people with their hands on the levers of power who have no feeling of shame, no embarrassment, no personal integrity and precedent and honor are no longer enough.

You're not wrong.

But even beyond that I don't think a lot of people "get" that you can only peel back the layers of a system, any system that is made of people before you hit some kind of bedrock of just agreeing that the system should work.

That's why I'm keep harping on the Democrats that keep acting as if when the Republican do something wrong some... referee is going to stop them.

This is the President, Congress, and SCOTUS. There is no singular "higher power" to appeal to when big chunks of it start deciding the system doesn't work because they don't want it to.

 

[Thermal]

If the question is ultimately 'what happens when our elected representatives throw out the rule of law and become openly seditious (not this mealy-mouse asking the courts thing), then the answer is ultimately that the Tree of Liberty is about to get watered. I don't think that filling out the proper permits would be high on anyone's priority list. Although I would expect to see a rapid realignment of the sides. The 99% would be united in a common goal when it was not Twitter posturing anymore.

 

[Darat]

If the question is ultimately 'what happens when our elected representatives throw out the rule of law and become openly seditious (not this mealy-mouse asking the courts thing), then the answer is ultimately that the Tree of Liberty is about to get watered. I don't think that filling out the proper permits would be high on anyone's priority list. Although I would expect to see a rapid realignment of the sides. The 99% would be united in a common goal when it was not Twitter posturing anymore.

But they aren’t. What they are doing is not following the precedent that some considered had benn raised to level of a rule, they aren’t breaking rules/laws/regulations, they are simply no longer “going along with how we’ve always done” X.

 

[Thermal]

But they aren’t. What they are doing is not following the precedent that some considered had benn raised to level of a rule, they aren’t breaking rules/laws/regulations, they are simply no longer “going along with how we’ve always done” X.

They have been compliant till now. The posit was that VP Pence ignored the count and the Senate backs him. Ultimately, that's more like a real coup.

 

[Ladewig]

If the question is ultimately 'what happens when our elected representatives throw out the rule of law and become openly seditious (not this mealy-mouse asking the courts thing), then the answer is ultimately that the Tree of Liberty is about to get watered. I don't think that filling out the proper permits would be high on anyone's priority list. Although I would expect to see a rapid realignment of the sides. The 99% would be united in a common goal when it was not Twitter posturing anymore.

99% ?

There is absolutely nothing that any part of the federal government could do that would make 99% of the population have a united view.

If the Trump clan put on SS uniforms and Don Jon himself declared that he will be president for life, you’d be lucky to get 80% of the population to complain. And you’d be lucky to get 60% to agree on a course of action.

 

[Thermal]

99% ?

There is absolutely nothing that any part of the federal government could do that would make 99% of the population have a united view.

If the Trump clan put on SS uniforms and Don Jon himself declared that he will be president for life, you’d be lucky to get 80% of the population to complain. And you’d be lucky to get 60% to agree on a course of action.

Many Americans are utterly full of **** in their posturing, IMO. Its the downside to being fat and entertained. I have faith that if a real threat to our democracy reared its ugly head, the posing would abruptly cease.

We've gone through four years of the dickheads finding their voice. A lot of play acting still going on, despite the very real trouble this administration has fathered. But it all went down plus or minus under democratic principles. If those are threatened, the weekend Trump flag waver would be cold-shocked out of his nationalistic stupor. At least I hope.