2020 United States presidential election - Conspiracy theories, alleged fraud, etc

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A foreign friend (Palestinian living in Dubai with relatives in the USA)sent me an email asking specifically about an aspect of the President's pardon power.

I have no idea how to answer:

He's asking if there was any numerical limit on Presidential pardon power and was wondering if Trump could pardon the entire Republican party (members) for all past, current and future Federal crimes?

He also seemed to think the pardons would not be valid unless individually signed by the President.

So what are the answers to that?
 
jnelso99 said:
There are plenty of death threats against the SCOTUS and inauguration flying on the conservative Twitter-alternative Parler. FBI's gonna be busy...
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The Secret Service and US Marshall's Office ( the US Marshalsl ar in charge of security for Federal courts and justices..) are going to be very busy also.
 
Hans said:
A foreign friend (Palestinian living in Dubai with relatives in the USA)sent me an email asking specifically about an aspect of the President's pardon power.

I have no idea how to answer:

He's asking if there was any numerical limit on Presidential pardon power and was wondering if Trump could pardon the entire Republican party (members) for all past, current and future Federal crimes?

He also seemed to think the pardons would not be valid unless individually signed by the President.

So what are the answers to that?
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I don't think there are definitive answers. The assumption of all of this when the Constitution was written granting pardon powers was that everyone involved would be reasonable. They didn't spell out all the details, because they didn't have to. Today, it would go to court, and ultimately be the opinion of the 9 Justices.

However, I think the concept of a pardon is forgiveness for things done in the past, so I don't think a pardon would ever cover future crimes.

I doubt that anything so broad as "the entire Republican Party" for "all crimes" would be accepted, either. I think that goes against the concept of a pardon. I think the idea of a pardon is that it's limited to specific things. I suppose it's another case that there is no literal and obvious meanings to the words, and it has never been tested in court, so it's hard to say what would happen if Trump or any other president tried to do it. I strongly suspect it would be deemed not valid. I don't think you can have a pardon without a crime, despite the fact that there is one very famous case where that happened, but even with Nixon, it was a rather extraordinary circumstance, and the scope of the pardon wasn't complete and universal. Besides which, it was also never tested in court.
 
Hans said:
A foreign friend (Palestinian living in Dubai with relatives in the USA)sent me an email asking specifically about an aspect of the President's pardon power.

I have no idea how to answer:

He's asking if there was any numerical limit on Presidential pardon power and was wondering if Trump could pardon the entire Republican party (members) for all past, current and future Federal crimes?

He also seemed to think the pardons would not be valid unless individually signed by the President.

So what are the answers to that?
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A pardon of a group of people is called amnesty. Under the power to pardon, a number of Presidents have granted amnesty.

George Washington granted amnesty to the participants of the Whiskey Rebellion, although was conditional on signing an oath of loyalty.

Abraham Lincoln granted amnesty to Union deserters. He granted conditional amnesty to those who participated in the rebellion (requiring a loyalty oath) except for high=ranking Confederate officers and political leaders. Andrew Johnson extended that to grant amnesty to all participants in the Civil War.

Jimmy Carter granted amnesty to all Vietnam draft dodgers.

Trump could theoretically pardon all Republican party members, but that would be everybody registered a Republican which would be tens of millions of people, surely including some very nasty characters in federal prison.

Trump could pardon something like all Republican elected officials, but the pardon would affect very few and probably most of them would not appreciate the implication that there was anything to pardon them for.
 
I think the answer to the question on pardoning is no one is really sure. Congress has never tried to regulate it. No case has ever been brought to a court (that I'm aware of) challenging a pardon or amnesties.

The power to pardon is in the Constitution but there are a lot of things in the Constitution that get regulated by Congress. The 2nd Amendment says we can bear arms but states and Congress have regulated some aspects of who and which arms we can have. We have freedom of speech but states and Congress have said you can't incite riots or utter threats to people. So, we know what's granted in the Constitution can be regulated but no one has ever tried with pardons.
 
Craig4 said:
I think the answer to the question on pardoning is no one is really sure. Congress has never tried to regulate it. No case has ever been brought to a court (that I'm aware of) challenging a pardon or amnesties.

The power to pardon is in the Constitution but there are a lot of things in the Constitution that get regulated by Congress. The 2nd Amendment says we can bear arms but states and Congress have regulated some aspects of who and which arms we can have. We have freedom of speech but states and Congress have said you can't incite riots or utter threats to people. So, we know what's granted in the Constitution can be regulated but no one has ever tried with pardons.
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Thanks for the answers and clarification I'll send on those well written words.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
Andrew Johnson extended that to grant amnesty to all participants in the Civil War.
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But I'm sure he didn't pardon them for any and all crimes they may have ever committed, much less any crimes they might commit in the future.

I assume that he pardoned them for all crimes of participating in the rebellion.

I suspect Trump could make a very broad pardon for all sorts of people, without listing which people, who may or may not have committed crimes in the pursuit of executing presidential policies during the time he was President. The lawyers would have to work on the specific wording, but the idea is clear enough.
 
Craig4 said:
I think the answer to the question on pardoning is no one is really sure. Congress has never tried to regulate it. No case has ever been brought to a court (that I'm aware of) challenging a pardon or amnesties.

The power to pardon is in the Constitution but there are a lot of things in the Constitution that get regulated by Congress. The 2nd Amendment says we can bear arms but states and Congress have regulated some aspects of who and which arms we can have. We have freedom of speech but states and Congress have said you can't incite riots or utter threats to people. So, we know what's granted in the Constitution can be regulated but no one has ever tried with pardons.
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Wouldn't there be a separation of powers issue though?
 
BazBear said:
I'm really not sure either. As you said some rights can be regulated by legislation, but this is different in that it's a power granted exclusively and explicitly to the executive.
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I have a feeling that over the next couple of years we will find out. The Constitution only says:

The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment.
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One thing I hope we find out is if you actually have to be charged with, convicted of or under investigation for committing a crime. It says offenses against the United States so does there have to be an underlying offense before the pardon? Could Congress make explicit that a pardon resulting from a bribe be invalid? I suspect a court would say an ill gotten gain is invalid but can Congress? Fascinating stuff.
 
Craig4 said:
I have a feeling that over the next couple of years we will find out. The Constitution only says:

One thing I hope we find out is if you actually have to be charged with, convicted of or under investigation for committing a crime. It says offenses against the United States so does there have to be an underlying offense before the pardon? Could Congress make explicit that a pardon resulting from a bribe be invalid? I suspect a court would say an ill gotten gain is invalid but can Congress? Fascinating stuff.
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It seems fairly easy to reason that a pardon can only apply to existing crimes under existing investigations. Otherwise, if pardons for people like Flynn (including all crimes future and past) would mean that

1. If he were found to have committed a federal crime such as the assassination of a US government official, say 20 years ago, he could not be prosecuted for it, and

2. He would then be able to commit a federal crime such as assassinating a US government official with impunity and never face prosecution for that.

I think even a constitutional originalist such as ACB would admit the Founders never intended this - for a pardon to apply to a crime without knowing it was even committed.
 
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smartcooky said:
It seems fairly easy to reason that a pardon can only apply to existing crimes under existing investigations. Otherwise, if pardons for people like Flynn (including all crimes future and past) would mean that

1. If he were found to have committed a federal crime such as the assassination of a US government official, say 20 years ago, he could not be prosecuted for it, and

2. He would then be able to commit a federal crime such as assassinating a US government official with impunity and never face prosecution for that.

I think even a constitutional originalist such as ACB would admit the Founders never intended this - for a pardon to apply to a crime without knowing it was even committed.
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One of the outcomes of the post Trump self evaluation I hope happens in this country is law from either Congress or courts on pardons. The above seems self evident but it's all theoretical right now.
 
smartcooky said:
Hi Bubba

Election fraud? You want to find election fraud? OK, here's some election fraud for you.....


"A Florida attorney is at the center of a new state investigation after elections officials say he recently attempted to register to vote in Georgia and instructed other Florida Republicans on how to do it."​


https://www.wsbtv.com/news/politics...ng-others-do-same/L6LTC2AHBFDMXPOTZKVMO5ESJQ/

Oh dear!!!
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Bubba is not here I'm afraid. He might still be dispirited over the Supreme Court's slamming the door in Dear Leader's face. As I imagine I certainly would be if I had been staking my ego on some secret plan magically endowing Trump with a second term despite the election result.

But fear not. His grief is likely transitory and I'm sure he'll be back any minute now to let us know how foolish we are for thinking the Supreme Court denial means anything, and that - once again for the n-teenth time - some new imminent tactic or deadline or methodology will be the real saving throw that puts Dear Leader back on the holy throne.
 
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