Racism or misunderstanding?

[Planigale]

Really? See my picture of the US Ryder Cup team I posted above. How do you refer to Tigert Woods when trying to point him out to someone who knows nothing of golf?

The one with the blonde on his arm?

 

[lomiller]

I avoid references to race in my day to day life as much as possible. But I may be overly sensitive.

I would certainly avoid it in my professional capacity and would be shocked if others didn't. If I walk into a room with a black colleague and someone in the room refers to them as "the black one" I would be ready to leave.

Maybe it is a recent thing, but I do not ever refer to professionals I work with or around by such identifiers. I don't refer to them by the race, their gender, their physical characteristics, or anything else that may be taken in context or out of context as a slight. That's just being a professional.

You have 6 people clustered in a small group, all dressed similarly. Someone asks you "which one is Terry" how do you answer the question without physically describing the person?

 

[3point14]

Because I don't think it is professional to refer to other professionals by their physical characteristics in a professional setting. Might I refer to them in such terms at the bar after work, maybe. But in a conference room when I have forgotten someone's name I don't say "Let's hear what the cute guy with the nicely pressed suit has to say about this topic" even if I think it is a compliment.

That's hardly a paralell though. You've escalated to include a compliment and a judgement call. That's ot the same thing at all.

Again, I wouldn't use those in a professional setting either.

Really? If there was one blonde bloke in the room and someone said to you, "Which one was professer Randomname?", you wouldn't say, "Oh, he was the one with the blonde hair."? In fact, I'm stuggling to see how, in some situations like this, you'd respond to such a query without referencing physical appearance.

Maybe it is just my profession. But I doubt you make it far in most professions these days referring to your colleagues by their physical characteristics.

Well, yes, because your colleagues know one another. When you refer to 'Dave', they'll know who you're talking about. In enviroments where not everyone is familiar with everyone else, it's only natural to say stuff like, "I don't think Nobby is here today, is he?", "Oh, yeah, he was the tall guy in the blue suit". It's practically inbuilt.

Sorry.

For what? You're hardly going to offend anyone with this outlook. I jsut can't see it being required in any circumstance.

How about this: Is there any reason to define a colleague solely by their apparent gender in a professional setting?

Yes.

"I've read this paper by Doctor Smith, now we're at the conference, I don't know which one is Doctor Smith"

"Oh, she's the lady." If there's one lady at the conference, and this, I would hope, doesn't happen as much as it did, that's a perfectly acceptable way of doing it.

Edit: And I think this is important, it's not 'defining'. I agree that to define someone by their physical characteristics, in almost any environment, is likely to be unacceptable. But to refer to someone by the same is fine.

 

[Olmstead]

 

[Vixen]

We are talking here about a professional situation (a commercial football match) not a circle of friends. IMV it would be quite rude to refer to someone's personal characteristics in such a setting. My former firm had an annual marketing event in which they'd invite all our clients and us professional staff were expected to 'mingle' with them. If any of these clients had asked me to point out, 'Steve' or 'Mark' they would be horrified were I to say, 'He's the fat fair-haired guy over there', or 'He's the Chinese/Indian/Jewish guy'. (How do you know? He might be Korean or Japanese or even American or Pakistani or Mauritian or not Jewish at all.) What about Sue? "Oh she's that short fat lady over there", or Jim? "Oh, he's the elderly silver-haired guy'. No, I would simply take you over and introduce you properly so you can ask them for yourself how they wish you to identify them.

 

[Vixen]

That's hardly a paralell though. You've escalated to include a compliment and a judgement call. That's ot the same thing at all.



Really? If there was one blonde bloke in the room and someone said to you, "Which one was professer Randomname?", you wouldn't say, "Oh, he was the one with the blonde hair."? In fact, I'm stuggling to see how, in some situations like this, you'd respond to such a query without referencing physical appearance.





Well, yes, because your colleagues know one another. When you refer to 'Dave', they'll know who you're talking about. In enviroments where not everyone is familiar with everyone else, it's only natural to say stuff like, "I don't think Nobby is here today, is he?", "Oh, yeah, he was the tall guy in the blue suit". It's practically inbuilt.






For what? You're hardly going to offend anyone with this outlook. I jsut can't see it being required in any circumstance.





Yes.

"I've read this paper by Doctor Smith, now we're at the conference, I don't know which one is Doctor Smith"

"Oh, she's the lady." If there's one lady at the conference, and this, I would hope, doesn't happen as much as it did, that's a perfectly acceptable way of doing it.

Edit: And I think this is important, it's not 'defining'. I agree that to define someone by their physical characteristics, in almost any environment, is likely to be unacceptable. But to refer to someone by the same is fine.

Look. Guests at these events have name badges. So just peer at their name badge, or get someone there you know to introduce you. All this stuff about having no alternative but to refer to someone as 'the Black' is just nonsense.

 

[3point14]

We are talking here about a professional situation (a commercial football match) not a circle of friends. IMV it would be quite rude to refer to someone's personal characteristics in such a setting. My former firm had an annual marketing event in which they'd invite all our clients and us professional staff were expected to 'mingle' with them. If any of these clients had asked me to point out, 'Steve' or 'Mark' they would be horrified were I to say, 'He's the fat fair-haired guy over there', or 'He's the Chinese/Indian/Jewish guy'. (How do you know? He might be Korean or Japanese or even American or Pakistani or Mauritian or not Jewish at all.) What about Sue? "Oh she's that short fat lady over there", or Jim? "Oh, he's the elderly silver-haired guy'. No, I would simply take you over and introduce you properly so you can ask them for yourself how they wish you to identify them.

I think you're being a little unrealistic. Introducing them just isn't viable or desirable in every situation. At some point you're going to come across a situation where you're going to have to describe them. In an environment where everyone's dressed the same, you're going to find that really difficult to do and not reference something physical.

It happens all the time at work. New colleagues ask me about the name on the bottom of an email they've received and who that is. I can't imagine contorting language to do that without saying what they looked like.

What people look like is how we know who they are.

There's a whole section of the brain dedicated to the 'what people look like' thing.


Go to a hospital, where the vast majority of people are in either white coats or scrubs and try sending someone up to the nurses station to find a person they've never met and don't tell them what they look like. That's not likely to go well.

 

[Dr. Keith]

You have 6 people clustered in a small group, all dressed similarly. Someone asks you "which one is Terry" how do you answer the question without physically describing the person?

Terry, could you come over here and talk to Mike about this project he needs your help on.

 

[Dr. Keith]

That's hardly a paralell though. You've escalated to include a compliment and a judgement call. That's ot the same thing at all.

I'd like to hear what the fat person from finance has to say? Could we hear something from the tall person from accounting? Has the bald guy from legal approved this yet?

I have a hard time seeing where you are going.

Really? If there was one blonde bloke in the room and someone said to you, "Which one was professer Randomname?", you wouldn't say, "Oh, he was the one with the blonde hair."? In fact, I'm stuggling to see how, in some situations like this, you'd respond to such a query without referencing physical appearance.

It really isn't hard at all. It is something I started two decades ago when I had a female engineering colleague who complained about being referred to as "the girl" in meetings. It just stuck with me from then on that referring to professionals by their physical characteristics is not very professional.

Well, yes, because your colleagues know one another. When you refer to 'Dave', they'll know who you're talking about. In enviroments where not everyone is familiar with everyone else, it's only natural to say stuff like, "I don't think Nobby is here today, is he?", "Oh, yeah, he was the tall guy in the blue suit". It's practically inbuilt.

If I already know Dave well then I probably have better ways to describe him than relying on his physical characteristics.

Edit: And I think this is important, it's not 'defining'. I agree that to define someone by their physical characteristics, in almost any environment, is likely to be unacceptable. But to refer to someone by the same is fine.

It may be acceptable in many instances. I find it very unprofessional and would not do so in a professional setting.

But, as I mentioned, this was soccer, not a professional sport. So my position is pretty off topic.

 

[cullennz]

Terry, could you come over here and talk to Mike about this project he needs your help on.

So you would yell across the room and interrupt Terry's conversation.

 

[3point14]

I'd like to hear what the fat person from finance has to say? Could we hear something from the tall person from accounting? Has the bald guy from legal approved this yet?

Again, you've changed it from 'which one's Bob?'. 'Oh, he's the tall one'.

I have a hard time seeing where you are going.



It really isn't hard at all. It is something I started two decades ago when I had a female engineering colleague who complained about being referred to as "the girl" in meetings. It just stuck with me from then on that referring to professionals by their physical characteristics is not very professional.

Yes, if it's done repeatedly in an environment where people should know who they're talking about, yes, it's offensive. I've said as much.

If I already know Dave well then I probably have better was to describe him than relying on his physical characteristics.

Ways that are going to resonate with someone that's never met Dave?

"Oh, he's the dilligent one"?

It may be acceptable in many instances. I find it very unprofessional and would not do so in a professional setting.

I just don't know how I'd do that consistently. "Who's this person who's signed this email? Which one's he?" is something I can normally only anwer with a physical description. I'd find it weird and difficult to do otherwise.

Again, I'm not talking about defining someone, I'm not talking about it becoming their moniker, just the whole 'which one's x' thing.

As I say, what people look like is how we know who they are. Hell, you've probably worked with a Mr Little, or a Miss Short. Names derived direclty from the physical appearance of whoever their ancestor was when surnames became required.

 

[dann]

I think that this one's a misunderstanding: ‘Monster Hunter’ Movie Pulled From Chinese Cinemas After ‘Knees’ Joke Falls Flat (HuffPost, Dec. 5, 2020)
But without the racist chant, the misunderstanding wouldn't have occurred.

 

[dudalb]

If there are two blokes sitting side by side over there and you want to indicate one of them to the person you're talking to, it's fine to use a distinguishing characteristic: The tall one, the short one, the one with long hair or, indeed, the black one or the white one. I don't see that as an issue.

Of course, if you both know their names, that has to be easier. If they have numbers on their clothing then that's definitely going to be easier.

The moment you add an insult to the end of it, it becomes more tricky. You might get away with 'you lanky bastard' or 'you blonde haired git', but the moment you consider using a racial characteristic along with an insult you should really stop and think again and maybe come up with something less charged and more poetic.

I've always said it doesn't matter so much what you say as what you mean, which is why you can get away with calling your friends all sorts of things that would result in a punch up if you used them on strangers. One should not expect or receive such latitude with people who aren't close friends.

"When you call me that, smile...."
Old Western Movie cliché where an old friend of the hero calls him a SOB, then a few minutes later the bad guy calls him that...

 

[lomiller]

Terry, could you come over here and talk to Mike about this project he needs your help on.

You just expert her to drop what she's doing and come when you call? I can't imagine she'd be too pleased with that.

 

[Thermal]

You just expert her to drop what she's doing and come when you call? I can't imagine she'd be too pleased with that.

Agreed. Instead of calling her, may be just a short whistle?

 

[lomiller]

It really isn't hard at all. It is something I started two decades ago when I had a female engineering colleague who complained about being referred to as "the girl" in meetings. It just stuck with me from then on that referring to professionals by their physical characteristics is not very professional.

If you think calling her a girl was just a simple physical description, you likely missed her point entirely. Unless she finished university at a very young age, she certainly wasn’t a “girl”. Any adult woman is likely to be insulted by being called a girl, or even treated like a your girl even if you don't call her one.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I avoid references to race in my day to day life as much as possible. But I may be overly sensitive.

I would certainly avoid it in my professional capacity and would be shocked if others didn't. If I walk into a room with a black colleague and someone in the room refers to them as "the black one" I would be ready to leave.

It goes over better if you say "the ridiculous masculine good looking black man". Smooths it over.

That's my daily attempt at humor. Take it as you will.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Is it sexist to refer to the only woman in a conference room as a woman? Is there any paralell there?

Totally sexist. We should be referred to as "the dude with the tits".

Apparently I'm trying for an extra round of bad humor today.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I suspect most black people can detect it when white people are nervous around them, afraid of making an innocent mistake. I also suspect they laugh at you behind your back.

They do. Or at least, my family does.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You have 6 people clustered in a small group, all dressed similarly. Someone asks you "which one is Terry" how do you answer the question without physically describing the person?

Holler out "Yo, Terry!" and when he looks up say "That's him"