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Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

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cullennz said:
Going by this over convoluted theory for what is basically sexual preference way of thinking.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I am sensing you think trans women who have the opp' are misandrists as they hate the thought of being a man and trans men are misogynists
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Not at all.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Sure but plenty of people get offended when they find out someone they found attractive right up until they found out they were trans. That isn't at all a case of not being into them, that is pretty clearly transphobia. These are statements not that they find a certain individual not sexually attractive, but that all individuals in a class are inherently unattractive to them, or as some have said even ones they find attractive are inherently off putting to them.

Does that ever cross some line into transphobia?
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The most extreme example of this is trans panic where the person, almost always a heterosexual cis-man, reacts violently once they discover that the object of their lustful eye is actually a transwoman.

hard to argue there's not some pretty deep-baked transphobia for such an intensely violent response.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Do you really want a response?

Fallon Fox was a mediocre fighter, no scare quotes required. Like many mediocre fighters, she had a brief career before retiring when it was clear she didn't have much of a future in professional fighting. If it weren't for the anti-trans circus that flocked to gawk at her and make wild allegations of impropriety, she is a fighter that nobody but the most die-hard UFC fan would remember. For all her alleged biological advantages, she was not outstanding in her ability in that sport.
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She was 37 when she was fighting professionally, against women in their early to mid twenties. 37 is old for any MMA fighter. She won 5 of the 6 professional fights that she fought. None of her female competitors had a record that good. Additionally, Fallon made a point of bragging about the harm she did, and expressing glee about damaging her female opponents. She herself has expressed that the reason she got into MMA fighting in the first place was that she could fight against females.

SuburbanTurkey said:
The CT legal case was brought by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a extremely conservative "pro-family" christian legal advocacy group that has defended state sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad and asserted that LGBT people are more likely to commit sex offences against children. Nice to know that they have your support against the "homosexual agenda" that will destroy society. Super cool group for people worried about the liberty and health of women to whiteknight for. Christian Dominionists and TERFs, working hand in hand again.
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Your dislike of the advocacy group involved doesn't diminish the perspective of those girls. It's well-poisoning to use the group taking up their suit to dismiss the point that those girls were unhappy seeing girls records being smashed by male-bodied competitors who hadn't undergone any medical transition at all.

SuburbanTurkey said:
I humbly suggest that convicted and prolific sex offenders can be isolated from the general prison population without the need to categorically deny gender identity to every trans person who has the misfortune of being locked up. Karen White is dangerous because she's a vicious rapist, but you just see an opportunity to smear all trans women as dangerous perverts.
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So here you are misrepresenting my view and attributing an imagined malice to me. I don't think that all transwomen are perverts. In fact, I rather think that the vast majority of transwomen are NOT perverts, just as I think the vast majority of males are NOT perverts. I do, however, think that putting self-identified transwomen who are male-bodied into a prison with females represents a risk that those female prisoners shouldn't be subjected to. Karen White (among a few others whose names I've forgotten) aren't intended to be representative of ALL transwomen. They are, however, a very clear counter to the claim that "transwomen aren't a danger to females" that gets trotted out by TRAs so frequently. Clearly, at least some transwomen are a danger to females - because they have male parts and male strength - and females have no way to tell which of those male-bodied people are a danger and which of those male-bodied people are not. Which, by the way, is why we have sex-segregated facilities in the first place.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Thanks for finally making your point about this cyclist lady. Not sure what that has to do with my request, pages ago, for evidence that trans people demanding sex with lesbian women was a mainstream and common opinion of the trans community. I have already stated that trans women may have an unfair advantage in sports, in this is one area where there are no obvious or good solutions when it comes to balancing the needs of trans and cis women athletes.
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Sure there is. Require at least 2 years of HRT bringing testosterone down to within the 90-percent range for females. Allow exceptions for those few sports where biology doesn't make a notable and measurable difference. That means, however, that untransitioned teenage males don't get to compete against teenage females.

SuburbanTurkey said:
Where's the Canadian trans crime wave? 3 years since they did the unspeakable and codified trans civil rights into law, surely your screeds about pervert male rapists attacking women in shelters and toilets and changing rooms came true? Surely you wouldn't continue to insist of keeping some of the most vulnerable and marginalized people in harm's way based on nothing more than personal distaste for trans people .
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I don't have a personal distaste for trans people - this is YOU being dishonest and arguing in bad faith. You've been provided cases of crimes committed by trans people and trans allies, you just dismiss them. You ignore the wave of threats made against feminists and females in Canada. You dismiss the sex predator getting into women's domestic violence shelters on the basis of transwomen being women, then masturbating his lady penis over the sleeping bodies of his roommates.

I don't think there is any information that could be provided to you that will make any difference in your belief. You have decided that any challenge to trans "rights" (including the right for full-grown adult male-bodied transwomen to walk around with their penises visible in front of female children) constitutes transphobia and bigotry... and that any cases of transgender people behaving badly are "outliers" or "fringe groups" and don't represent a real risk. The rampant misogyny and threats against women made online by a LARGE number of trans-identified people... those don't matter, they're not a real threat, and it's not a big deal that they harass women and lesbians on a regular basis. "Punch a TERF" is just a catchy slogan, right?

Like you already said yourself, you're perfectly happy to use women and children as the guinea pigs in this social experiment.
 
cullennz said:
Going by this over convoluted theory for what is basically sexual preference way of thinking.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I am sensing you think trans women who have the opp' are misandrists as they hate the thought of being a man and trans men are misogynists
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Also somehow gay people nt wanting to have sex with people of the opposite biological sex are the real oppressive bigots. Who cares about all that effort that gay people put into winning social acceptance to be who they are, and have sex with who they want free from abuse and discrimination. It's time to abuse them for being so bigoted as to only want to have sex with people of their own sex. Sheesh, those evildoers.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Again that is a different situation, the classic case is seen in say the crying game where you are really into someone until you find out they are trans. That is pretty clearly transphobic in nature right?

So it is an issue when the lesbian decides she was trapped into being into this "woman" by being fake and not a real woman. Then they had interest and chemistry but it was not enough. That then folds into making blanket statements as transwomen are not real lesbians or so forth.



Sure but plenty of people get offended when they find out someone they found attractive right up until they found out they were trans. That isn't at all a case of not being into them, that is pretty clearly transphobia. These are statements not that they find a certain individual not sexually attractive, but that all individuals in a class are inherently unattractive to them, or as some have said even ones they find attractive are inherently off putting to them.

Does that ever cross some line into transphobia?
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I think if you're digging on someone until you get that information, then yeah, there's a pretty good chance there's a deeper issue such as transphobia or sexism at work.

That's really pretty different from the issue I was thinking of, though, which has more to do with cases where one can clearly "tell." A gay man being scolded because he just can't enjoy getting down with a male vagina is closer to what I meant.
 
Butter! said:
I think if you're digging on someone until you get that information, then yeah, there's a pretty good chance there's a deeper issue such as transphobia or sexism at work.

That's really pretty different from the issue I was thinking of, though, which has more to do with cases where one can clearly "tell." A gay man being scolded because he just can't enjoy getting down with a male vagina is closer to what I meant.
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A violent reaction seems a bit much, but I'm not particularly supportive of violent aggression in the first place.

I will say though that if I were really grooving an a person I viewed as a man, who had the outward markers of masculinity... and then I found out that they were biological female and had female genitals... I think I'd feel as if I had been lied to and that my affection had been taken advantage of. I have nothing against transgender people, nor do I have anything against homosexual people. But I myself am not homosexual. I have no interest in vaginas when it comes to having sex with someone.
 
Emily's Cat said:
A violent reaction seems a bit much, but I'm not particularly supportive of violent aggression in the first place.

I will say though that if I were really grooving an a person I viewed as a man, who had the outward markers of masculinity... and then I found out that they were biological female and had female genitals... I think I'd feel as if I had been lied to and that my affection had been taken advantage of. I have nothing against transgender people, nor do I have anything against homosexual people. But I myself am not homosexual. I have no interest in vaginas when it comes to having sex with someone.
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My understanding was that PT was talking about a situation where the person had had genital surgery and was passing perfectly.

ETA - I was originally talking about a genitals-intact situation, though. No way that is de facto transphobic, IMO. That sort of thing isn't a "preference," it's hard-wired in most people. It's primal, rooted in depths, completely unaware of and uninvolved with sociological and philosophical evolution.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
The most extreme example of this is trans panic where the person, almost always a heterosexual cis-man, reacts violently once they discover that the object of their lustful eye is actually a transwoman.

hard to argue there's not some pretty deep-baked transphobia for such an intensely violent response.
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No. That's more along the line of homophobia. They suddenly see the woman as a man are afraid of being seen as gay or having a homosexual experience.

Is the trans person the victim? Yes. but not so much because of fear of trans, rather an internalized fear of being or being homosexual.

I used to work with a guy who told the story where his buddies set him up. They told him they would meet him at a certain bar. Being from out of town, he did not know it was a gay bar. So he sat at the bar and started talking to this girl. They started making out and his hands started roaming which was when he found an unexpected piece of anatomy. He didn't get violent, but he stood up real fast, looked around and realized all the couples on the dance floor were same sex. He apologized and left.

It's pretty similar to the story in Lola (Kinks), except the narrator turns around and comes back. And yes, The Crying Game.

There's a couple of things to consider here.

First, being shocked and surprised brings out fight or flight responses in people. One interpretation is that it shows true attitudes or biases. Another is that we generally react to the unexpected as threats and attempt to either neutralize or escape from the threat. This doesn't excuse people who beat up girls when they find out they are trans, but it explains why my coworker stood up suddenly (with a girl on his lap) and left or why the protagonist in Lola "pushed her away" and "walked to the door."

Second, intimate situations in which you are vulnerable are not the best time to spring surprises. I know that sounds like blame the victim, but that's not what I'm saying. In a lot of movies one of the tropes was to take someone out to dinner or other public place in order to break up, ask for a divorce, or some other shocking thing. Being surrounded by other people tends to temper instant reactions and provide a safety net if things go bad. Now, the woman in my coworker's story probably thought he knew she was trans because of the location. His buddies are the villains here because they used the LGBT community as a prop for a joke at his expense. (LGB at the time, I think, it was the early 80s and I don't think the T had been added yet.) Of course they had no idea how oblivious he would be and that he would encounter a trans woman there. they probably figured he'd walk in, look around, and walk out.

Third, just because someone reacts as my co-worker did doesn't mean they are necessarily transphobic. Maybe not even massively homophobic. When he told this story (33 years ago) he did not speak critically about the girl or seem to think she did anything wrong. Of course he also thought the joke was pretty funny. To him it was about suddenly realizing he wasn't where he thought he was and that he was out of his element.

My point?

Simply that I think sometimes trans-panic is more of a reaction to shock than hatred of trans people. (Or even homosexuality.)
 
TomB said:
No. That's more along the line of homophobia. They suddenly see the woman as a man are afraid of being seen as gay or having a homosexual experience.
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Um that is exactly what transphobia is. Rejecting the persons gender. Kind of like there is nothing racist about being shocked to find out someone you thought was normal was really a black person who could pass.
 
Emily's Cat said:
In other parts of the world that take a more careful approach and don't give hormone blockers, around 80% of the kids who have gender confusion grow out of it when they go through their normal puberty.
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I don't think you have any evidence for that. The study that has been presented a few times that shows that a substantial number of gender non-conforming kids don't go on seeking sex-reassignment is from the Netherlands, and was written by the very people who pioneered the treatment of transgender kids, including the prescription of puberty blockers.

The group of kids receiving puberty blockers is not included in the group that "grow out of it". The kids who are likely to "grow out of it" are not prescribed puberty blockers, at least not in the Netherlands.

There is a rather strong suggestion that puberty blockers increase that confusion and contribute to dysphoria that would otherwise have been alleviated during puberty.
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A strong suggestion from people who know very little about the issue, and who are not involved in treating gender non-conforming kids.

There's a significant amount of over-diagnosis of transgender among children on the autism spectrum. They're discomfort around others and their social challenges are being interpreted as them being transgender, rather than being autistic.
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From my experience, the opposite problem seems more common; that often transgender kids are dismissed as "autistic".

Tavistock has been giving experimental treatment to children, on the basis of diagnoses that don't control for other factors, and have NOT been continuing therapy and counseling for those children.
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If that's true, then they are not following the protocols for transgender youth care developed in the Netherlands, and the court could have used that in their judgement.

Emily's Cat said:
The UK has been eye-opening for me, in part because they moved very quickly to embrace trans ideology...
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The UK has probably been one the slowest to do so of all Western nations. It was very late in allowing transsexuals to change their legal gender at all, or to include them in their anti-discrimination law.

It's been the UK that allowed self-identified transwomen, who had no medical intervention at all, to be placed in the female prison ward despite their records of violence... and that led to female prisoners being raped by a male-bodied transwoman.
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I think you mean: it's been the UK that has such badly organised prison system that it fails to protect prisoners from each other.
 
Butter! said:
My understanding was that PT was talking about a situation where the person had had genital surgery and was passing perfectly.

ETA - I was originally talking about a genitals-intact situation, though. No way that is de facto transphobic, IMO. That sort of thing isn't a "preference," it's hard-wired in most people. It's primal, rooted in depths, completely unaware of and uninvolved with sociological and philosophical evolution.
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Perhaps I misread PT then. Generally, if person has had full GRS and is passing very well, then I would expect *most* people to be pretty open minded about it. I can see some potential challenges arising, given that the artificial genitalia don't function the same way natural ones do, and take additional work and preparation for using. But I would think that *most* reasonable people would at least be willing to consider giving it a go.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Um that is exactly what transphobia is. Rejecting the persons gender. Kind of like there is nothing racist about being shocked to find out someone you thought was normal was really a black person who could pass.
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It's not rejecting their gender though, it's rejecting their sex. More specifically, it's rejecting their genitalia.

The comparison to racism is inapt. It's not like being surprised that a person passing for black turned out to actually be white (Dolezal, eg). It's more like being perfectly comfortable with your pal then suddenly having him strip off his Edgar Suite and reveal himself to be a mutli-eyed slavering bugblatter beast of traal.

ETA: Or maybe, more like having a friend you met at your local Lutheran church, and have gone to church with several times, who came over for bible studies on Wednesdays... who suddenly reveals themselves to have been a practicing Satanist the whole time.
 
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ponderingturtle said:
Um that is exactly what transphobia is. Rejecting the persons gender. Kind of like there is nothing racist about being shocked to find out someone you thought was normal was really a black person who could pass.
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No.

Unless you also think gay men and straight women are gynophobic for rejecting female gender. Or that lesbians and straight men are androphobic.

And it's also worth noting that the available or expected sex acts are different between different genital combinations. That's not insignificant.

My point is simply that at least some trans-panic incidents arise from homophobia or sexual incompatibility combined with an unexpected revelation.

Does that excuse people beating on someone when they find out they are trans? No. It just means that finding out that the other person has different genitals than you expected can be a deal breaker for reasons other than trans-phobia. It's easy to attribute cause and effect if you only look at the surface.

And when that revelation occurs under the wrong conditions, it can look bad.

And the race comparison here is a real reach. Not every situation is analogous.
 
Emily's Cat said:
It's not rejecting their gender though, it's rejecting their sex. More specifically, it's rejecting their genitalia.
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Good point. They are fine with the gender. It's the sex reveal that causes the reaction.
The comparison to racism is inapt. It's not like being surprised that a person passing for black turned out to actually be white (Dolezal, eg). It's more like being perfectly comfortable with your pal then suddenly having him strip off his Edgar Suite and reveal himself to be a mutli-eyed slavering bugblatter beast of traal.

ETA: Or maybe, more like having a friend you met at your local Lutheran church, and have gone to church with several times, who came over for bible studies on Wednesdays... who suddenly reveals themselves to have been a practicing Satanist the whole time.
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I can't agree with these analogies, however, as they imply that the trans-person is revealed to either be a hideous monster or to be practicing deception. I don't think either is true.

I've seen some debate on trans vlogs about when to inform a date or potential date that one is trans. I don't know that there's a good answer. Declare it whenever they meet a new person? When you think things are going in a romantic/sexual direction? When you know things are going in a sexual direction? Let it happen naturally and risk trans-panic and possibly physical assault? Assume the person already knows? Are the rules different Pre- vs post-op?

This is one issue that trans-people have to consider that non-trans people don't.
 
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