Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[cullennz]

Everyone has their own preferences for their partners.

I am struggling to see why dudes/lesbians not wanting to shag trans women is the one that makes this bad.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Everyone has their own preferences for their partners.

Sure but some are based on racism and bias and some are not. I mean sure she had sex with a black guy in the past is totally not a racist reason for refusing to date someone as you are quite clear on. Nothing racist there.

As they say once you go black you are no longer welcome here. Nothing racist in that at all.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Sure but some are based on racism and bias and some are not. I mean sure she had sex with a black guy in the past is totally not a racist reason for refusing to date someone as you are quite clear on. Nothing racist there.

As they say once you go black you are no longer welcome here. Nothing racist in that at all.

Look, I'm just a white libertarian who is attracted primarily to very impoverished, submissive Filipino women who wait on me hand and foot, and that says nothing about my racial prejudices.

I don't think impugning people's dating preferences is a particularly useful exercise and demanding that people date certain populations or be labeled a bigot is counterproductive, but obviously people's preferences are informed by their biases.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Look, I'm just a white libertarian who is attracted primarily to very impoverished, submissive Filipino women who wait on me hand and foot, and that says nothing about my racial prejudices.

I don't think impugning people's dating preferences is a particularly useful exercise and demanding that people date certain populations or be labeled a bigot is counterproductive, but obviously people's preferences are informed by their biases.

Oh it is certainly of limited value, but there is just so much of it that always goes quickly to transphobia that it seems like it should be illustrative. It of course rarely is, like people refuse to think their racial preferences could be a result of racial bias and cultural stereotyping, that would certainly be called out as racism in the right context.

It isn't institutional racism after all it is just preferential enforcement of driving laws. And a personal preference never hurt anyone right?

 

[Butter!]

And then again you get lots of people refusing to date trans people even if they have bottom surgery so it is often more than preferring certain genitals for sexual activity. Then it gets into things like how exacting can ones standards in partners genitals be, is say refusing to date anyone below 8" reasonable or bias?

People also love to debate as to if racial preferences like refusing to date blacks are in some way racist.

I said a thing, you said a completely different thing, made an allusion to racism, and now I'm the a-hole. That's how this conversation always seems to go.

I don't actually think you're being malicious. I think you genuinely believe I'm being malicious. You read what I wrote, but you don't believe it's what I meant. Why, though?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's an example of a general trend to willfully misrepresent my views. I have no interest in rehashing something from pages and pages ago. You refuse to be intellectually honest then, and will continue to do so now.

Okay then. Your position is that I've "willfully misrepresented" your view... but simultaneously refuse to present your view. Basically, you're just claiming dishonesty on may part without evidence of such.

It's hard to get past your position here. Every time you've been presented with actual events, actual harms done, you brush it off as an outlier.

Karen White rapes women when she gets moved to the female ward? Oh, that's not common, it's not going to be a big risk, nobody can provide you with evidence that this is a widespread concern. The fact that it's a risk that did not used to exist... well, that's just not a worry for you, transwomen need protection and they should be in with the females regardless of their genitalia because they're women end of story. That this introduces a risk to females just doesn't worry you.

Women athletes are not happy having biological males competing against them in sports. You get presented several cases, and for each of them you have a dismissal. Oh, it's only a few girls in CT complaining, they're not representative. Oh, Fallon Fox was a "mediocre" competitor who happened to be older and in much poorer shape than the female competitors that she dominated in a massive way and she quit fighting after her first loss. Oh, the weightlifter in NZ is a woman, the people complaining that they are taking women's titles are just TERFs. Oh, Rachel McKinnon (who you've never heard of) who is older and squishy and completely uncompetitive as a male is dominating women's cycling and that's just fine, she's a woman and those women are just sore losers.

You insist that any woman who expresses concerns about male-bodied people in spaces where females are vulnerable are transphobes who are trying to scare people up that transgender people are predators. Even if we say no, not all of them are, in fact the majority are not, but we can't tell the difference, you take the position that it just doesn't happen. WE present you with cases where it actually does happen... and those are creeps who are outliers, it's not trans people who are a danger. The fact that it is males who are the danger, and that males includes transwomen, just gets brushed off.

This comment of your really sums up my frustration with you:

Seems that we have a natural experiment going on right now to really find out if civil rights for trans people is going to open the flood gates for sexual violence against women and children.

You seem to have no qualms experimenting with the safety of women and children. And the risk of increased sexual violence - when sexual violence against women is already a widespread problem - shows a complete lack of care.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Look, I'm just a white libertarian who is attracted primarily to very impoverished, submissive Filipino women who wait on me hand and foot, and that says nothing about my racial prejudices.

I don't think impugning people's dating preferences is a particularly useful exercise and demanding that people date certain populations or be labeled a bigot is counterproductive, but obviously people's preferences are informed by their biases.

Honestly, I'm a bit baffled about when the sexual orientation of homosexual people (especially lesbians) got clawed back to just being a "preference" and now is something they can just change their minds about. Heck, failure to change their minds about their "genital preference" and their "vagina fetish" means that those evil lesbians are the true oppressors!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Okay then. Your position is that I've "willfully misrepresented" your view... but simultaneously refuse to present your view. Basically, you're just claiming dishonesty on may part without evidence of such.

It's hard to get past your position here. Every time you've been presented with actual events, actual harms done, you brush it off as an outlier.

Karen White rapes women when she gets moved to the female ward? Oh, that's not common, it's not going to be a big risk, nobody can provide you with evidence that this is a widespread concern. The fact that it's a risk that did not used to exist... well, that's just not a worry for you, transwomen need protection and they should be in with the females regardless of their genitalia because they're women end of story. That this introduces a risk to females just doesn't worry you.

Women athletes are not happy having biological males competing against them in sports. You get presented several cases, and for each of them you have a dismissal. Oh, it's only a few girls in CT complaining, they're not representative. Oh, Fallon Fox was a "mediocre" competitor who happened to be older and in much poorer shape than the female competitors that she dominated in a massive way and she quit fighting after her first loss. Oh, the weightlifter in NZ is a woman, the people complaining that they are taking women's titles are just TERFs. Oh, Rachel McKinnon (who you've never heard of) who is older and squishy and completely uncompetitive as a male is dominating women's cycling and that's just fine, she's a woman and those women are just sore losers.

You insist that any woman who expresses concerns about male-bodied people in spaces where females are vulnerable are transphobes who are trying to scare people up that transgender people are predators. Even if we say no, not all of them are, in fact the majority are not, but we can't tell the difference, you take the position that it just doesn't happen. WE present you with cases where it actually does happen... and those are creeps who are outliers, it's not trans people who are a danger. The fact that it is males who are the danger, and that males includes transwomen, just gets brushed off.

This comment of your really sums up my frustration with you:


You seem to have no qualms experimenting with the safety of women and children. And the risk of increased sexual violence - when sexual violence against women is already a widespread problem - shows a complete lack of care.

Gish gallop of anti trans crap and a quote that isn't even linked back to the original context. I don't give you enough credit, that's truly impressive misrepresentation skills.

Canada codified trans acceptance into law in 2017. Where's the tidal wave of trans violence against women and children you keep insisting is real and not just a manifestation of anti-trans animus?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I said a thing, you said a completely different thing, made an allusion to racism, and now I'm the a-hole. That's how this conversation always seems to go.

I don't actually think you're being malicious. I think you genuinely believe I'm being malicious. You read what I wrote, but you don't believe it's what I meant. Why, though?

I don't, but I know that when pressed few who decide to say they would not date a trans person because of genitals change their opinions when the trans person has had genital reconstruction. It seems to often be the mere idea that they used to me thought of as some other gender makes them undateable.

I have had people trying to argue on this site that no matter what their body is now, because of a past existence they are gross and disgusting to even think about having sex with.

There are a lot of transphobic thoughts tied into that exactly, it was the whole point of the movie the crying game after all.

But the problem is that this is viewed as some kind of absolute, not something to be thought of and questioned exactly what is important to you vs not. Kind of like how everyone is racist, and so everyone needs to work on being better, instead of pretending that racial stereotypes have not biased your perceptions and effected what you regard as attractive.

As I pointed out above it is trivially easy to show that it isn't just about genitals as people do not generally change their gender preferences as opposite for trans people. No one seems to be a vaginasexual for example that all that matters is that their partner have a vagina.

 

[cullennz]

Sure but some are based on racism and bias and some are not. I mean sure she had sex with a black guy in the past is totally not a racist reason for refusing to date someone as you are quite clear on. Nothing racist there.

As they say once you go black you are no longer welcome here. Nothing racist in that at all.

When I was younger and actually went out and had fun, a couple of a female mate (who is white) only slept with Maori.

Does that make them racist?

 

[cullennz]

Sure but some are based on racism and bias and some are not. I mean sure she had sex with a black guy in the past is totally not a racist reason for refusing to date someone as you are quite clear on. Nothing racist there.

As they say once you go black you are no longer welcome here. Nothing racist in that at all.

And I thought the saying was once you go black, you never go back?

 

[ponderingturtle]

When I was younger and actually went out and had fun, a couple of a female mate (who is white) only slept with Maori.

Does that make them racist?

Yep. Fetishizing other races is also racist.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh it is certainly of limited value, but there is just so much of it that always goes quickly to transphobia that it seems like it should be illustrative. It of course rarely is, like people refuse to think their racial preferences could be a result of racial bias and cultural stereotyping, that would certainly be called out as racism in the right context.

Uh-huh. Those evil oppressive lesbians are the problem, they're the real bigots for not submitting to a good dicking. How do they know they won't like *this* dick if they don't give it a try? I'm sure if they just got the right dicking, they'd no longer have a "preference" for vaginas, and could comfortable shift their orientation to semi-hetero-pan-sexual instead of "identifying" as lesbians. It's so outdated to think that having a specific sexual orientation is socially acceptable...

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gish gallop of anti trans crap and a quote that isn't even linked back to the original context. I don't give you enough credit, that's truly impressive misrepresentation skills.

Canada codified trans acceptance into law in 2017. Where's the tidal wave of violence against women you keep insisting is real and not just a manifestation of anti-trans animus?

Wow. Just wow. There was no misrepresentation, these are discussions you were directly involved in and are an accurate demonstration of your expressed views. Seriously, what of that is "anti-trans"? Is it that self-identified transwomen with intact male genitalia represent a risk to female prisoners? Is it that male-bodied people have an advantage in sports? Is it that males have consistently represented a risk to females when it comes to sexual assault?

 

[cullennz]

Yep. Fetishizing other races is also racist.

So gay people who only shag the same sex as them are heterophobic and should go to some de-programming course to take away their hate think?

What about 18 year old heterosexual girls who refuse to shag 80 year old men on viagra?

I am guessing that is ageist?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Wow. Just wow. There was no misrepresentation, these are discussions you were directly involved in and are an accurate demonstration of your expressed views.

Do you really want a response?

Fallon Fox was a mediocre fighter, no scare quotes required. Like many mediocre fighters, she had a brief career before retiring when it was clear she didn't have much of a future in professional fighting. If it weren't for the anti-trans circus that flocked to gawk at her and make wild allegations of impropriety, she is a fighter that nobody but the most die-hard UFC fan would remember. For all her alleged biological advantages, she was not outstanding in her ability in that sport.

The CT legal case was brought by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a extremely conservative "pro-family" christian legal advocacy group that has defended state sanctioned sterilization of trans people abroad and asserted that LGBT people are more likely to commit sex offences against children. Nice to know that they have your support against the "homosexual agenda" that will destroy society. Super cool group for people worried about the liberty and health of women to whiteknight for. Christian Dominionists and TERFs, working hand in hand again.

I humbly suggest that convicted and prolific sex offenders can be isolated from the general prison population without the need to categorically deny gender identity to every trans person who has the misfortune of being locked up. Karen White is dangerous because she's a vicious rapist, but you just see an opportunity to smear all trans women as dangerous perverts.

Thanks for finally making your point about this cyclist lady. Not sure what that has to do with my request, pages ago, for evidence that trans people demanding sex with lesbian women was a mainstream and common opinion of the trans community. I have already stated that trans women may have an unfair advantage in sports, in this is one area where there are no obvious or good solutions when it comes to balancing the needs of trans and cis women athletes.

Where's the Canadian trans crime wave? 3 years since they did the unspeakable and codified trans civil rights into law, surely your screeds about pervert male rapists attacking women in shelters and toilets and changing rooms came true? Surely you wouldn't continue to insist of keeping some of the most vulnerable and marginalized people in harm's way based on nothing more than personal distaste for trans people .

 

[Butter!]

I don't, but I know that when pressed few who decide to say they would not date a trans person because of genitals change their opinions when the trans person has had genital reconstruction. It seems to often be the mere idea that they used to me thought of as some other gender makes them undateable.

I have had people trying to argue on this site that no matter what their body is now, because of a past existence they are gross and disgusting to even think about having sex with.

There are a lot of transphobic thoughts tied into that exactly, it was the whole point of the movie the crying game after all.

But the problem is that this is viewed as some kind of absolute, not something to be thought of and questioned exactly what is important to you vs not. Kind of like how everyone is racist, and so everyone needs to work on being better, instead of pretending that racial stereotypes have not biased your perceptions and effected what you regard as attractive.

As I pointed out above it is trivially easy to show that it isn't just about genitals as people do not generally change their gender preferences as opposite for trans people. No one seems to be a vaginasexual for example that all that matters is that their partner have a vagina.

Well, that's not even my viewpoint (I think I could probably date a convincing transmen, cause why the hell not), but if it were someone's viewpoint, I don't think it makes them a bigot. I've known men who were objectively attractive but with whom I felt no sexual chemistry. If an otherwise trans-accepting lesbian reacts that same way to a transwoman, penis or not, it's a sexual chemistry issue. I feel weird trying to politicize that.

It's really quite a bit different from your example about racism and partner's past sexual history.

EDIT: Also, there are more indicators of one's natal sex than genitals. If those features turn someone off because he/she is staunchly hetero or homo-oriented, I don't see that as something needing correction. It's no different than guys who don't find me hot because I never grew tits (and there are plenty of those, believe me).

 

[ponderingturtle]

So gay people who only shag the same sex as them are heterophobic and should go to some de-programming course to take away their hate think?

Got it you consider gay men who will have sex with trans men as less gay just like straight men who will have sex with transwomen are less straight.

There is tons of trans misogyny in the gay community. And such statement about who they find attractive enough to have sex with is quite often not based on any self reflection on what they personally find attractive vs what society tells them they should.

There is certainly limited value in telling people who they should be dating or screwing, but there is rather a lot of value on the self reflection and analysis as to why you find x attractive and z off putting. And yes those can be racist and it doesn't make you a terrible person unworthy of love, it makes you human. But acknowledging that some of your attractions or disgusts come from racist, homophobic, or transphobic places.

What about 18 year old heterosexual girls who refuse to shag 80 year old men on viagra?

I am guessing that is ageist?

Sure, but that seems one people are pretty comfortable with. But ageism is certainly an issue, see men only wanting to date women 10+ years younger than them. It is also ageism for the 80 year old to want the 18 year old over another 80 year old after all.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, that's not even my viewpoint (I think I could probably date a convincing transmen, cause why the hell not), but if it were someone's viewpoint, I don't think it makes them a bigot. I've known men who were objectively attractive but with whom I felt no sexual chemistry. If an otherwise trans-accepting lesbian reacts that same way to a transwoman, penis or not, it's a sexual chemistry issue. I feel weird trying to politicize that.

Again that is a different situation, the classic case is seen in say the crying game where you are really into someone until you find out they are trans. That is pretty clearly transphobic in nature right?

So it is an issue when the lesbian decides she was trapped into being into this "woman" by being fake and not a real woman. Then they had interest and chemistry but it was not enough. That then folds into making blanket statements as transwomen are not real lesbians or so forth.

It's really quite a bit different from your example about racism and partner's past sexual history.

EDIT: Also, there are more indicators of one's natal sex than genitals. If those features turn someone off because he/she is staunchly hetero or homo-oriented, I don't see that as something needing correction. It's no different than guys who don't find me hot because I never grew tits (and there are plenty of those, believe me).

Sure but plenty of people get offended when they find out someone they found attractive right up until they found out they were trans. That isn't at all a case of not being into them, that is pretty clearly transphobia. These are statements not that they find a certain individual not sexually attractive, but that all individuals in a class are inherently unattractive to them, or as some have said even ones they find attractive are inherently off putting to them.

Does that ever cross some line into transphobia?

 

[cullennz]

Got it you consider gay men who will have sex with trans men as less gay just like straight men who will have sex with transwomen are less straight.

There is tons of trans misogyny in the gay community. And such statement about who they find attractive enough to have sex with is quite often not based on any self reflection on what they personally find attractive vs what society tells them they should.

There is certainly limited value in telling people who they should be dating or screwing, but there is rather a lot of value on the self reflection and analysis as to why you find x attractive and z off putting. And yes those can be racist and it doesn't make you a terrible person unworthy of love, it makes you human. But acknowledging that some of your attractions or disgusts come from racist, homophobic, or transphobic places.



Sure, but that seems one people are pretty comfortable with. But ageism is certainly an issue, see men only wanting to date women 10+ years younger than them. It is also ageism for the 80 year old to want the 18 year old over another 80 year old after all.

Going by this over convoluted theory for what is basically sexual preference way of thinking.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I am sensing you think trans women who have the opp' are misandrists as they hate the thought of being a man and trans men are misogynists