Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[TurkeysGhost]

It's pretty interesting that this is another example where TERFs are pretty much parroting the past strategies of pro-life reactionaries trying to have the state intervene in the private medical treatment of people.

I trust we all remember all the "abortion regretters" that these reactionary elements would trot out whenever they tried to make a case for the need to criminalize medical procedures that consenting people, including minors, often desired. The reactionary right considered it a major victory when they convinced Roe of Roe v. Wade to come out publicly as such a person.

Pretty sure "they're too young to consent, you must have XYZ court permission" was the exact argument used to deprive young pregnant people of access to abortion care. Nice to see the shine hasn't come off that apple yet.

Nice to see TERFs running the classics.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Deleted, double post

 

[Chanakya]

Oh, she's that Inception girl, isn't she? I thought she was kind of cute back when I watched that movie. Pity.

(Not really, though. I'm sure she's happier being whatever she wants to be, than being thought cute by random guys on the internet/audience. Good for her.)

 

[Ziggurat]

The court did not find Keira Bell's claim to have been put on puberty blockers after only 3 one-hour appointments to have been false. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to share.

That certainly doesn't fit my understanding of "long term".

 

[Emily's Cat]

If they were truly enlightened, then they would adopt Titania McGrath’s position.

I lolled.


On a marginal topic... I always found Ellen Page attractive. I used to think that suggested I was probably about a Kinsey 2. Now I'm wondering if that just means I'm a Kinsey 0? So confusing. I used to be comfortable with my mostly-but-not-completely heterosexual orientation. Now I need to be worried about whether I'm homophobic!


If it's not clear, that's humor.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Yes. That's why it's funny.

There's no accounting for taste.

Doesn't really seem subtle enough to be effective satire of woke twitter to my eye. Not a particularly convincing Poe, but I'm sure it plays well to the target audience.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If they were truly enlightened, then they would adopt Titania McGrath’s position.

If you skip over the twattery involved, there are some genuinely funny comments in there...

He's been stealing roles from women for years if you think about it

I for one am happy that we can unashamedly celebrate straight white men again. Go patriarchy!

Yeah, turning how many men gay without their consent?

So... his girlfriend is now straight?

End of the day, I don't care how Page identifies. But the linguistic confusion is entertaining as hell.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The fact that the vast majority go on to a full sex reassignment proves that they have been identified as trans successfully.

Not really. It shows that children who have some gender confusion and who take puberty blockers go on to take cross-sex hormones. In other parts of the world that take a more careful approach and don't give hormone blockers, around 80% of the kids who have gender confusion grow out of it when they go through their normal puberty.

There is a rather strong suggestion that puberty blockers increase that confusion and contribute to dysphoria that would otherwise have been alleviated during puberty. But nobody has actually done any controlled tests, so there's a whole lot of guesswork involved.

And there have been several people who have come forward after having gone on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, who when they were older realized they weren't trans at all and should not have been given those puberty blockers in the first place. Keira Bell, for example.

This court makes a really weird argument that the success in identifying children as trans somehow invalidates their treatment. Obviously most of the kids who are prescribed puberty blockers in their treatment of gender dysphoria go on to take cross sex hormones; the children who go will go for a sex change is what the treament is for.

Not necessarily. There's no provision for false positive diagnoses. In many cases, the children are diagnosed as transgender with very little evidence, and importantly - without controlling for other factors. There's a significant amount of over-diagnosis of transgender among children on the autism spectrum. They're discomfort around others and their social challenges are being interpreted as them being transgender, rather than being autistic. They end up getting hormone treatment when they really need occupational therapy. Additionally, there's a huge amount of prior sexual abuse and trauma, as well as other mental and emotional health issues in the children that they are diagnosing as transgender.

Not reallly no. I am however familiar with the protocols used for treating transgender children, which were first developed in the Netherlands. Do you have evidence that the Tavistock Clinic is not following those protocols? The court judgement doesn't show that evidence, as it claims that the vast majority of children getting puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones later, which is exactly what you'd expect if their gender identity is identified successfully.

See my comments above.

Tavistock has been giving experimental treatment to children, on the basis of diagnoses that don't control for other factors, and have NOT been continuing therapy and counseling for those children. The only thing they do is affirm - they view any counseling or treatment aimed at bringing a child to be comfortable in the body they already have as being "conversion therapy". Thus they reinforce the child's belief that they are transgender, even though there's strong reason to believe that about 80% of those children would have grown out of their gender discomfort when they went through the natural puberty that was denied to them.

 

[Ziggurat]

There's no accounting for taste.

True enough.

Doesn't really seem subtle enough to be effective of woke twitter to my eye. Not a particularly convincing Poe, but I'm sure it plays well to the target audience.

It's not supposed to be convincing. It's supposed to be completely over the top. That's why it's extra-funny when it does manage to convince the unwary anyways.
https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1255603114952048641
Follow it to the end, the last line is great.

 

[theprestige]

I think the next thing to fall under the axe of trans-activism is probably going to be the gay-straight distinction.

Elliot Paige's girlfriend probably doesn't think of herself as straight. Probably doesn't see her attraction to Elliot as a heterosexual attraction.

But that causes problems for the "man in every way that matters" narrative. So I bet that within the next year or so we're going to start seeing a pop culture push to deprecate the whole idea of binary sexual attraction. Anyone who declares themselves decidedly homosexual or heterosexual will be pressured to revise that to some form of non-binary or binary-agnostic sexual preference.

Caught between dismissing the truth of the FtM transition, and dismissing the truth of her own sexual attraction to women, I bet people like Elliot's girlfriend will be pressured to dismiss her own sexual attraction.

It'll probably go something like, "Elliot was a man all along, so you were attracted to a man all along, so your lesbianism was really something else all along. Agree or get canceled."

 

[Ziggurat]

I think the next thing to fall under the axe of trans-activism is probably going to be the gay-straight distinction.

Quite possibly. In this case, though, it's largely just an issue of labels. It gets much creepier with the whole "cotton ceiling" thing where transwomen with male genitals try to pressure lesbians into having sex with them.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think the next thing to fall under the axe of trans-activism is probably going to be the gay-straight distinction.

Elliot Paige's girlfriend probably doesn't think of herself as straight. Probably doesn't see her attraction to Elliot as a heterosexual attraction.

But that causes problems for the "man in every way that matters" narrative. So I bet that within the next year or so we're going to start seeing a pop culture push to deprecate the whole idea of binary sexual attraction. Anyone who declares themselves decidedly homosexual or heterosexual will be pressured to revise that to some form of non-binary or binary-agnostic sexual preference.

Caught between dismissing the truth of the FtM transition, and dismissing the truth of her own sexual attraction to women, I bet people like Elliot's girlfriend will be pressured to dismiss her own sexual attraction.

It'll probably go something like, "Elliot was a man all along, so you were attracted to a man all along, so your lesbianism was really something else all along. Agree or get canceled."

I don't think that will ever be more than a fringe expression of the pro-trans community. I think the fear of the "cotton ceiling" probably goes in the same pile as political lesbianism, something that does happen in the most extreme fringe, but not really representative of the wider queer community.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume what might be happening to the relationship between Page and the girlfriend.

It's not unheard of for transitioning to end a relationship, even in cases where the other partner is supportive of the transition. It's hard to say what is happening here without intimate personal knowledge that we are almost certainly never going to know. It's entirely possible that they themselves don't know how it's going to shake out.

Coming out late in life often has unpleasant consequences such as this.

 

[xjx388]

I think the next thing to fall under the axe of trans-activism is probably going to be the gay-straight distinction.

Elliot Paige's girlfriend probably doesn't think of herself as straight. Probably doesn't see her attraction to Elliot as a heterosexual attraction.

But that causes problems for the "man in every way that matters" narrative. So I bet that within the next year or so we're going to start seeing a pop culture push to deprecate the whole idea of binary sexual attraction. Anyone who declares themselves decidedly homosexual or heterosexual will be pressured to revise that to some form of non-binary or binary-agnostic sexual preference.

Caught between dismissing the truth of the FtM transition, and dismissing the truth of her own sexual attraction to women, I bet people like Elliot's girlfriend will be pressured to dismiss her own sexual attraction.

It'll probably go something like, "Elliot was a man all along, so you were attracted to a man all along, so your lesbianism was really something else all along. Agree or get canceled."

The girlfriend is in a weird situation, isn't she? If she breaks up with Page, that's not very supportive. She's supposed to love the person, no? But if she truly is lesbian then a sexual relationship with Eliot Page makes no sense. Unless she realizes that she's actually bisexual . . .

I don't know and don't really care, let them live their lives. I do find the mental gymnastics interesting though. I mean, I'll use the pronouns, all that stuff but I can't help it if I find it all a little absurd. You can't ask me to simply accept as reality something that requires so many mental twists. If my wife of 32 years realized she was actually a man and wanted to live that way from now on . . . uh, that means we are divorcing (and I've got some serious questions about the last 32 years!). I'll always love the woman I married but, effectively, she doesn't exist anymore. It would be like that person died, almost. I simply can't buy the idea that she was actually a man all along and the implication that I was actually in a homosexual relationship. That's not what I lived and perceived.

 

[theprestige]

I don't think that will ever be more than a fringe expression of the pro-trans community. I think the fear of the "cotton ceiling" probably goes in the same pile as political lesbianism, something that does happen in the most extreme fringe, but not really representative of the wider queer community.

Trans-activism looms a lot larger in society than do transsexuals themselves. It's not about how many people actually are in this situation. It's about the degree to which a vocal minority of activists will end up controlling the narrative about this and punishing those who question it.

I don't have to be in the tiny minority of people who are reevaluating their sexuality now that their partner is transitioning. I can be in the vast majority of people who identify as homosexual or heterosexual, and still be subject to cancellation attacks by openly adhering to that view.

 

[Meadmaker]

The girlfriend is in a weird situation, isn't she? If she breaks up with Page, that's not very supportive. She's supposed to love the person, no? But if she truly is lesbian then a sexual relationship with Eliot Page makes no sense. Unless she realizes that she's actually bisexual . . .

Or she realizes that Elliott Page is really a woman, regardless of what he says.

 

[theprestige]

The girlfriend is in a weird situation, isn't she? If she breaks up with Page, that's not very supportive. She's supposed to love the person, no? But if she truly is lesbian then a sexual relationship with Eliot Page makes no sense. Unless she realizes that she's actually bisexual . . .

Well... As far as I can tell, Elliot Paige can still pass as a woman, right down to the sexual apparatus. So he can still foster a lesbian attraction from his girlfriend, if he wants.

But that puts Elliot in an awkward position. Having come out as a man, he'd have to start intentionally misgendering himself in order to support his girlfriend's sex life.

So it's pretty much awkward positions everywhere. Not just for Elliot and his girlfriend, but for all of us expecting some sort of sensical and consistent position on transsexuality from the trans-activist community.

This is why I'm betting the next target is going to be binary sexual preferences. Because it looks like the only coherent response to criticisms of the form "your position on transsexuality is not stable within the current framework of human sexuality" is to smash the framework.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think the next thing to fall under the axe of trans-activism is probably going to be the gay-straight distinction.

Elliot Paige's girlfriend probably doesn't think of herself as straight. Probably doesn't see her attraction to Elliot as a heterosexual attraction.

But that causes problems for the "man in every way that matters" narrative. So I bet that within the next year or so we're going to start seeing a pop culture push to deprecate the whole idea of binary sexual attraction. Anyone who declares themselves decidedly homosexual or heterosexual will be pressured to revise that to some form of non-binary or binary-agnostic sexual preference.

Caught between dismissing the truth of the FtM transition, and dismissing the truth of her own sexual attraction to women, I bet people like Elliot's girlfriend will be pressured to dismiss her own sexual attraction.

It'll probably go something like, "Elliot was a man all along, so you were attracted to a man all along, so your lesbianism was really something else all along. Agree or get canceled."

"In the next year or so"? It's already happening. Particularly among lesbians. Great new terms coined like "vagina fetishist" for lesbians who don't like dicks. And the "cotton ceiling" has already been around for a good while - where genitally intact transwomen lament not being able to "break through" the gussets on those lesbian's panties with their "female penis" and have penis-in-vagina lesbian sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think that will ever be more than a fringe expression of the pro-trans community. I think the fear of the "cotton ceiling" probably goes in the same pile as political lesbianism, something that does happen in the most extreme fringe, but not really representative of the wider queer community.

Way to dismiss the experiences of lesbian women as "no big deal".

Seriously, why is it that the experiences of females are so frequently dismissed as unimportant and not a big deal? They're so often deemed "not representative" with no proof whatsoever when they don't conform to what a male believes the reality ought to be.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The girlfriend is in a weird situation, isn't she? If she breaks up with Page, that's not very supportive. She's supposed to love the person, no? But if she truly is lesbian then a sexual relationship with Eliot Page makes no sense. Unless she realizes that she's actually bisexual . . .

Might very well depend on whether or not Page retains their original equipment or not.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Way to dismiss the experiences of lesbian women as "no big deal".

Seriously, why is it that the experiences of females are so frequently dismissed as unimportant and not a big deal? They're so often deemed "not representative" with no proof whatsoever when they don't conform to what a male believes the reality ought to be.

Here you go again, trying to elide the fact that TERF ideology is a minority.

These lesbian women trying to gin up trans panic do not speak for all lesbian women. Why do you keep insisting on silencing women by trying to elide lesbian women who support trans rights?