Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

Thermal said:
That's a different problem, although I partially agree. In the current culture, a white guy being shot is not news because it is somehow assumed that he must have deserved it (Dan Shavers family glances over). A black victim raises automatic questions about motivation and guilt, and people taking sides, often blindly.
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Except for BLM regularly questioning the shooting of people who are not black. You do realize you are accusing people of playing the race card?
 
Nakani said:
Every body knows this. There are rules citizens follow when interacting with the police. Black people aren't exempt.


When they are white, nobody cares, "Man with knife shot by police", Wooptee doo.
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What this generally means is "When the person is white, *I* don't care." Still gets news coverage according to the basic rules (video helps immensely when it comes to national coverage, asinine excuses still draw outrage), still draws protests (including many local civil rights groups like Black Lives Matter), violent police responses to protests still draw widespread outrage.

The big differences I've noticed are that police are much less likely to turn to mass violence it the days after a shooting, and these cases rarely get much from the "You only care when the victim is black/what about black on black crime!?" crowds. Civil Rights orgs tend to say both that US police are far too aggressive and violent, *and* this falls disproportionately on black and Hispanic people (and especially Native/mentally ill people)
 
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Thermal said:
Agreed. That's the problem. Police are well known for being far too willing to shoot people. It should be a dead last resort, not the first and only. The few times I have had guns pointed at me, it was by police. I was never armed or threatening, and not even a bad guy (wrong place and time stuff). It was the first and only means of possible, maybe, kinda-sorta, could be theoretically dangerous threat mitigation that was even on the table. Straight to lethal, before the threat was assessed.
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The police are ready to kill, until the threat is assessed. On a traffic stop, you might think they are just asking for your license and registration, but there is a lot going on from their point of view.
The cop casually talking to you about your holiday weekend is also assessing your every move, a quick draw away from killing you. Only a fool would do that job any other way.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Maybe someone has already enlightened you on this, but in case not - this is due to police training.
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....yes, that's what we are talking about. The police training is powerfully wrong. The focus should be on protecting the lives of the citizenry, not making sure the cops make it home in time for dinner, to the point of killing anything that kinda maybe could interfere with that noble goal.

The training is to basically fire a large number of shots, be totally certain the individual is completely neutralized, on the ground. Why? Because there have absolutely been situations previously (and even since) this was made the norm, where a suspect had a knife or a gun, got shot once or twice, was thought to be neutralized, then shot / stabbed the cop and killed them.
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And by this argument, we should outlaw all cars because hey, very rarely things go wrong.

Too hyperbolic? Ok. Sometimes police are shot unexpectedly, as in a routine traffic stop. Your reasoning quite literally means a cop should shoot to kill upon pulling a car over, because hey, he could possibly be an unexpected threat. Preventative mowing-down is rarely justified. Like I said earlier, I've been at the receiving end of that kind of thinking. It ain't pleasant to know a cop is literally preparing to kill you because he is scared to do his job and/or wants to kill if given the flimsiest of pretexts.
 
Nakani said:
The police are ready to kill, until the threat is assessed. On a traffic stop, you might think they are just asking for your license and registration, but there is a lot going on from their point of view.
The cop casually talking to you about your holiday weekend is also assessing your every move, a quick draw away from killing you. Only a fool would do that job any other way.
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Ah a clear supporter of killology and how killing someone makes for the best sex of your life.

"In the class recorded for “Do Not Resist,” Grossman at one point tells his students that the sex they have after they kill another human being will be the best sex of their lives. The room chuckles. But he’s clearly serious. “Both partners are very invested in some very intense sex,” he says. “There’s not a whole lot of perks that come with this job. You find one, relax and enjoy it.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2017/02/14/a-day-with-killology-police-trainer-dave-grossman/

In police training killing someone is an effective means at spicing things up in the bedroom.
 
Nakani said:
The police are ready to kill, until the threat is assessed. On a traffic stop, you might think they are just asking for your license and registration, but there is a lot going on from their point of view.
The cop casually talking to you about your holiday weekend is also assessing your every move, a quick draw away from killing you. Only a fool would do that job any other way.
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FFS, a cop is not on a Hatian Death Squad. In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them. That's exactly the problem: police favoring pretend threats to themselves over the actual lives of those they are entrusted to protect.
 
Thermal said:
FFS, a cop is not on a Hatian Death Squad. In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them. That's exactly the problem: police favoring pretend threats to themselves over the actual lives of those they are entrusted to protect.
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But how will that improve the sex lives of cops?
 
Thermal said:
FFS, a cop is not on a Hatian Death Squad. In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them. That's exactly the problem: police favoring pretend threats to themselves over the actual lives of those they are entrusted to protect.
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Aren't the majority of cops who shoot somebody, shooting somebody who poses an imminent threat to people around them? If cops shoot two people who charge at them with a knife, and one cop sitting in his patrol car gets shot I don't see that you can simply add up the numbers and say that the greater problem here is police violence. Surely the figures to compare are unjustified killings of members of the public by police vs unjustified killings of police by members of the public?
 
More cops have died of covid 19 this year than any other cause, which is funny because I routinely see cops not wearing masks in public places, and the Venn Diagram of "back the blue" CHUDs and anti mask weirdos is almost a perfect circle.

More likely to get killed by the viral load from an unmasked bootlicker than gunfire, the cop lifestyle in 2020.
 
Thermal said:
FFS, a cop is not on a Hatian Death Squad. In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them. That's exactly the problem: police favoring pretend threats to themselves over the actual lives of those they are entrusted to protect.
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Cops are trained not to get killed plus body armor so I bet the numbers are low.

Potential threats not pretend threats.
 
Thermal said:
In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them.
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Some police shootings are completely justified, from start to finish. So cops killing more citizens than citizens killing cops is, honestly, what we should want. It would be great if no police were killed, and some really bad guys were killed.

Far more relevant is the ratio of justified to unjustified killings, but those numbers are a little more difficult to come up with. But unjustified killings by police are going to be lower than the total number of killings by police, that much should be obvious.
 
Nakani said:
Cops are trained not to get killed plus body armor so I bet the numbers are low.

Potential threats not pretend threats.
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Also you should expect to be shot at any second by a convenience store clerk as they are a significantly more dangerous job than being a cop. They should get the same immunity from brandishing laws that cops get so they can point guns at people with out any messy repercussion of having to justify it.
 
Thermal said:
They say the dead guy had a knife and wouldn't drop it as he advanced on the cops. So the cops cracked off about seven shots each. That's a lot of bullets to stop a guy walking with a knife.
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I only learned this recently about tracing a billet back to the weapon that fired it. We’ve all seen TV court scenes where the distinct gun barrel pattern is used to identify the slug that killed the victim.
Although striations are individualized evidence and will not match any other bullet or weapon, microscopic striations in the barrel of the weapon will change about every three to five shots. This is important because if attorneys wish to present ballistics evidence in court, it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one specific bullet would match one specific weapon.​
The police also know this.
It is a very reasonable explanation as to why US police fire a seemingly unnecessary fusillade of bullets at a murder victim.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Also you should expect to be shot at any second by a convenience store clerk as they are a significantly more dangerous job than being a cop. They should get the same immunity from brandishing laws that cops get so they can point guns at people with out any messy repercussion of having to justify it.
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Sounds like a good idea, you could have a clerk basic training course with situational awareness and weapons training to cut down on accidents.
 
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Nakani said:
Sounds like a good idea, you could have a clerk basic training course with situational awareness and weapons training to cut down on accidents.
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Do you really think it's a good idea that grocery store clerks get immunity from prosecution for brandishing a weapon at someone?
 
EHocking said:
I only learned this recently about tracing a billet back to the weapon that fired it. We’ve all seen TV court scenes where the distinct gun barrel pattern is used to identify the slug that killed the victim.
Although striations are individualized evidence and will not match any other bullet or weapon, microscopic striations in the barrel of the weapon will change about every three to five shots. This is important because if attorneys wish to present ballistics evidence in court, it would be hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one specific bullet would match one specific weapon.​
The police also know this.
It is a very reasonable explanation as to why US police fire a seemingly unnecessary fusillade of bullets at a murder victim.
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Are police frequently let off on this basis? I don't recall it being an issue in any of the cases I've read.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Also you should expect to be shot at any second by a convenience store clerk as they are a significantly more dangerous job than being a cop. They should get the same immunity from brandishing laws that cops get so they can point guns at people with out any messy repercussion of having to justify it.
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Of course. Because a convenience store clerk is required by the conditions of his/her employment to protect the store. We cannot expect a convenience store clerk to be responsible for the property he/she oversees -and the safety of the other occupants of said property- without allowing him/her the means to perform that service and a certain conditional immunity that recognizes the unpredictability of human interaction.
Without that, no one would choose to do that job at all.
 
Thermal said:
FFS, a cop is not on a Hatian Death Squad. In the States, cops are killing more citizens than citizens killing cops. They are far more a threat to us than we are to them. That's exactly the problem: police favoring pretend threats to themselves over the actual lives of those they are entrusted to protect.
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Is there anyone they are not entrusted to protect?

You say "those who" as if there is a class of individual they are not charged with protecting. Who would that be? And why would it not include "themselves"?
 
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