Freedom of speech?

[TurkeysGhost]

Not the intent, apologies if it came off that way.



Ok. Let's imagine how carrying a gun into a violent demonstration might play out, shall we?

Wait...first let's go over what you have already imagined. Even better, let's go over how many hours a week you prepare for how you will fire (and first, secure) this weapon in a crowd.

How often do you train to fire on multiple attackers who have knocked you to the ground from behind, for a start. That's a very realistic possibility.

Wait, too advanced? Let's try simpler. How many hours a week do you practice firing on a moving target at close range, while maintaining enough control to not hit bystanders behind them, like my daughter who also attends counterprotests? How many hours per year? Ever even read a magazine article that touched briefly on the subject?

If the answer to these questions is "none" or "can't be bothered", don't bring a god damned gun into a ******* violent crowd.

You continue this strawman that my intention is to open fire into a crowd.

Perhaps you are aware of how these fascist groups actually hurt people. Sure, sometimes they attack mobs, but more likely they try to find people alone, say after the event has ended and people are dispersing. Our local fascist outfit, NSC-131, has a video of them doing this exact thing at a more recent protest, cornering some black clad guy who was on his own after the event ended. Fortunately it was in a semi-public place and they did little more than imply violence. These people will absolutely take an opportunity to gang beat someone should it arise, and it is wise to ensure you are properly armed and ready to meet force with superior force.


You are aware of the many such beatings that occur when fascists think they have found an enemy alone and with the sense of privacy to commit crimes? Besides the car attack at Unite the Right, 6 members of a white supremacist group hospitalized a man in a parking garage. 4 of them were later identified and are spending years in prison for malicious wounding. It seems the other 2 have escaped justice.

Harris was separated from his friends in the chaos of the crowd and was "cornered" by white supremacists

snip

Harris suffered a head laceration requiring eight staples, a concussion, a knee injury, a fractured forearm, a chipped tooth, internal injuries, and a spinal injury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_of_DeAndre_Harris

Hey look, one of the attackers was one of these Proud Boys you insist are impotent.


If it makes you rest easier, I'm not some milita CHUD that thinks firing into a crowd of people is a reasonable or lawful way to use self defense. If some fascist gang tries to follow me into a parking garage to thump my skull, they are liable to get shot. I trust you understand the difference.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Let's see:

• Reform the police department
• Create neighborhood watch & defense groups - with the stress on defense
• Continue to report threats from groups like that to the local police, as well as the local news stations
• ...
• Probably several other things as well

What's not on my list? Turning into violent, left wing fascists and extremists...

Defense is not allowed, all that is allowed is recording the beatings by white supremacists and posting them on the internet. Then hope the police do something about it. And when they don't throw your hands up and say well we did everything we could.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... Do the Proud Boys, as an organization, encourage violence? It seems like they might, even if their documents nominally claim otherwise. I honestly don't know.

Now you honestly know.

The cowards are careful not to name any target publicly so that these statements cannot be legally termed what they are, incitement. They also move in groups and attack smaller groups or individuals, the very definition of rank, yeller-bellied cowardice.

 

[Thermal]

So, ********.

When I first started hearing about them, they weren't protesting against nazi types. They were protesting against right wingers. Maybe I was misled about exactly who they were protesting. Anyone who was on the right was a fascist, I guess.

With no official organization, it's kind of hard to say.

IIRC, they rocketed to public attention when Milo Y, Ann Coulter et al spoke in Cali. Their fliers at the time warned more about peripheral attendees, like Identity Europa and other alt-right groups. The actual speaker was tangential. Antifa tagline was 'come punch your favorite nazi' and a doxxed list of people who said they were coming, with no real reference to the actual event speaker.

I doubt that they are really afraid of doxxing, though. At that San Fran gathering, there were a couple of hundred people there, and only a few wore masks, and one of the ones who was wearing a mask did the punching. I think he was wearing a mask because he thought that would make him unidentifiable to police. Looks like that didn't work out so well for him.

Yeah, antifa has always had anarchists in their midst, and the wider antifa movement adopted the practical black bloc for their anonymity from prosecution. They are admittedly taking law into their own hands.

Now we are seeing more 'unaffiliated' antifa, more ideologically consistent with pure anti-fascist supporters. These are not card-carrying cats, methinks.

 

[Thermal]

You continue this strawman that my intention is to open fire into a crowd.

Negative, bro. I think you have no intentions at all, just plan to take a killing tool into a volatile situation with no preparation whatsoever and just wing it. And I consider that a recipie for disaster. You're a smart guy. I think you know where I'm going with this.

Perhaps you are aware of how these fascist groups actually hurt people. Sure, sometimes they attack mobs, but more likely they try to find people alone, say after the event has ended and people are dispersing. Our local fascist outfit, NSC-131, has a video of them doing this exact thing at a more recent protest, cornering some black clad guy who was on his own after the event ended. Fortunately it was in a semi-public place and they did little more than imply violence. These people will absolutely take an opportunity to gang beat someone should it arise, and it is wise to ensure you are properly armed and ready to meet force with superior force.


You are aware of the many such beatings that occur when fascists think they have found an enemy alone and with the sense of privacy to commit crimes? Besides the car attack at Unite the Right, 6 members of a white supremacist group hospitalized a man in a parking garage. 4 of them were later identified and are spending years in prison for malicious wounding. It seems the other 2 have escaped justice.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_of_DeAndre_Harris

Yes, I have said many times that they are cowards who pick fights where they dramatically have the advantage. The problem is, a good coward might get the jump on you. What preparations have you made to secure or use your weapon when being jumped from behind by four guys? Do you practice with a partner who is holding you down, so you have a working understanding of what works and what doesn't? Guns are not the kind of thing you can just 'see what happens'.

Hey look, one of the attackers was one of these Proud Boys you insist are impotent.

Exactly. A lone individual, like Tiny Toese, is always trouble, with or without an affiliation. The group as a nationwide whole gets into less trouble than the roofing crew on my jobsite gets into during a non-COVID summer. They have no power, potential or otherwise.

If it makes you rest easier, I'm not some milita CHUD that thinks firing into a crowd of people is a reasonable or lawful way to use self defense. If some fascist gang tries to follow me into a parking garage to thump my skull, they are liable to get shot. I trust you understand the difference.

I do. I taught my kids to drive by taking them on a variety of roads and conditions. Spent hours running them through everything they would likely come across, and generally what to do. I'll ask yet again: what training and preparation have you made for bringing a weapon into what you believe is a violent situation that you think you might need it?

You said earlier that you bring pepper for MAGA chuds, and a gun for bigger threats. Do you seriously, soberly think people are so generic that you could determine that need in advance?

Btw, not trying to gotcha you here. Your posts are more thoughtful than most, and I expect thoughtful answers.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Negative, bro. I think you have no intentions at all, just plan to take a killing tool into a volatile situation with no preparation whatsoever and just wing it. And I consider that a recipie for disaster. You're a smart guy. I think you know where I'm going with this.



Yes, I have said many times that they are cowards who pick fights where they dramatically have the advantage. The problem is, a good coward might get the jump on you. What preparations have you made to secure or use your weapon when being jumped from behind by four guys? Do you practice with a partner who is holding you down, so you have a working understanding of what works and what doesn't? Guns are not the kind of thing you can just 'see what happens'.



Exactly. A lone individual, like Tiny Toese, is always trouble, with or without an affiliation. The group as a nationwide whole gets into less trouble than the roofing crew on my jobsite gets into during a non-COVID summer. They have no power, potential or otherwise.




I do. I taught my kids to drive by taking them on a variety of roads and conditions. Spent hours running them through everything they would likely come across, and generally what to do. I'll ask yet again: what training and preparation have you made for bringing a weapon into what you believe is a violent situation that you think you might need it?

You said earlier that you bring pepper for MAGA chuds, and a gun for bigger threats. Do you seriously, soberly think people are so generic that you could determine that need in advance?

Btw, not trying to gotcha you here. Your posts are more thoughtful than most, and I expect thoughtful answers.

This is becoming tedious. I'm surprised it hasn't all been dumped to AAH yet.

Toothless Proud Boy is promising another similar rally Nov 1st, though no idea if this is actually going to happen. There seemed to be quite a bit of infighting among the Proud Boys after his first disastrous showing, and notable leaders in the group were quick to lay blame on toothless for holding a rally that made them look weak and cowardly.

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1318443994758606850

 

[Thermal]

This is becoming tedious. I'm surprised it hasn't all been dumped to AAH yet.

Agreed. I thought it would be a question, answer, and moving on.

It was only 4 yrs ago we were asking if it was ok to punch a Nazi. Then it was can we throw eggs and milkshakes at them. Now it's can we knock their teeth out when the individual (Anderson) had not done a damned thing. And the discussion now moves toward bringing guns to rallys, to make sure you can...what did you call it? Meet force with superior force. It's scary **** to watch this discussion unfold. But ok, I suppose you have answered the question. By ommission.

Toothless Proud Boy is promising another similar rally Nov 1st, though no idea if this is actually going to happen. There seemed to be quite a bit of infighting among the Proud Boys after his first disastrous showing, and notable leaders in the group were quick to lay blame on toothless for holding a rally that made them look weak and cowardly.

https://twitter.com/IGD_News/status/1318443994758606850

Just like the rallys my way. They don't show up over half the time. Because as a group, they are impotent twats with little actual internal or external support.

Eta: I guess he chose November so he wouldn't have to say 'Dethember'

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Agreed. I thought it would be a question, answer, and moving on.

It was only 4 yrs ago we were asking if it was ok to punch a Nazi. Then it was can we throw eggs and milkshakes at them. Now it's can we knock their teeth out when the individual (Anderson) had not done a damned thing. And the discussion now moves toward bringing guns to rallys, to make sure you can...what did you call it? Meet force with superior force. It's scary **** to watch this discussion unfold. But ok, I suppose you have answered the question. By ommission.



Just like the rallys my way. They don't show up over half the time. Because as a group, they are impotent twats with little actual internal or external support.

Eta: I guess he chose November so he wouldn't have to say 'Dethember'

Sometimes they don't show up, sometimes they kill people.

It's staggering the way you minimize the current danger of these nascent fascist groups.

 

[Thermal]

Sometimes they don't show up, sometimes they kill people.

It's staggering the way you minimize the current danger of these nascent fascist groups.

Fascists want political power. These clowns don't. They are a social threat, like The Pagans or skinheads. A limited public threat, but not a political one. They are not the Reich on the hoof. In general, the pb's don't even interact with the general public. Their whole raison d'etre seems to be a half-assed Fight Club with antifa.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Fascists want political power. These clowns don't. They are a social threat, like The Pagans or skinheads. A limited public threat, but not a political one. They are not the Reich on the hoof. In general, the pb's don't even interact with the general public. Their whole raison d'etre seems to be a half-assed Fight Club with antifa.

I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think PB's don't see themselves as a part of a larger coalition of right wing groups that absolutely have political goals. They are careful to brand themselves and wield violence in particular ways, but it's clear they see themselves as a vanguard of a larger movement. Time and time again we've seen there's free exchange, behind closed doors, between "respectable" suit-and-tie fascists and their street warrior counterparts.


While these fascist groups hold their own events that have little goal beyond beating leftists, they also regularly attend more ordinary political rallies. They build credibility as an intimidation force and use that reputation to influence mainstream politics.

 

[Thermal]

I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think PB's don't see themselves as a part of a larger coalition of right wing groups that absolutely have political goals. They are careful to brand themselves and wield violence in particular ways, but it's clear they see themselves as a vanguard of a larger movement.

How they see themselves is irrelevant if external reality isn't buying it.

Eta: your eta: I think their credibility is faltering, if anything. The recent Leathermen rebranding fiasco puts a spotlight on that. This is a group that named themselves after a song from Disney's Alladin. Just kick back and watch the implosion.

Without antifa to gang up on, what do you see these Village People doing, society wide?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How they see themselves is irrelevant if external reality isn't buying it.

You don't think ordinary people are intimidated by these people? You don't think Biden/Harris libs would feel unsafe if Proud Boys crashed their events, even if they didn't commit any violent acts?

Proud Boys are arguably more active today than the KKK, and I think most people would be intimidated if uniformed Klan members showed up to their rally wielding clubs and rifles.

 

[Thermal]

You don't think ordinary people are intimidated by these people? You don't think Biden/Harris libs would feel unsafe if Proud Boys crashed their events, even if they didn't commit any violent acts?

Of course they can be intimidating. So can The Pagans, if you run into some at Dunkin Donuts. But the Pagans, overwhelmingly, have no interest in you, or me. That's what I am arguing. The pbs are being portrayed as the coming of the brownshirts. As 'fash'. They are not such a threat. Like any other street gang, keep their threat in perspective. You are affording them many times the power they actually have.

Eta: your eta: the klan always had far reaching aspirations. The pbs don't. They are, according to SPLC, a general hate group, whose initiation includes punching Antifa. Without the pushback they get, im not sure how much push they even have. They don't really stand for much.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Of course they can be intimidating. So can The Pagans, if you run into some at Dunkin Donuts. But the Pagans, overwhelmingly, have no interest in you, or me. That's what I am arguing. The pbs are being portrayed as the coming of the brownshirts. As 'fash'. They are not such a threat. Like any other street gang, keep their threat in perspective. You are affording them many times the power they actually have.

Eta: your eta: the klan always had far reaching aspirations. The pbs don't. They are, according to SPLC, a general hate group, whose initiation includes punching Antifa. Without the pushback they get, im not sure how much push they even have. They don't really stand for much.

I wish I shared your view of the PB's disinterest in public affairs. I honestly find it completely baffling. If I weren't already somewhat familiar with you through this forum, I would assume it was insincere.

 

[Meadmaker]

IIRC, they rocketed to public attention when Milo Y, Ann Coulter et al spoke in Cali. Their fliers at the time warned more about peripheral attendees, like Identity Europa and other alt-right groups. The actual speaker was tangential. Antifa tagline was 'come punch your favorite nazi' and a doxxed list of people who said they were coming, with no real reference to the actual event speaker.



Yeah, antifa has always had anarchists in their midst, and the wider antifa movement adopted the practical black bloc for their anonymity from prosecution. They are admittedly taking law into their own hands.

Now we are seeing more 'unaffiliated' antifa, more ideologically consistent with pure anti-fascist supporters. These are not card-carrying cats, methinks.

Their arrival in the public consciousness sounds about right. I remember the Ann Coulter incident.

Coulter isn't an extreme right winger. She is a solid, unwavering, and unapologetic right winger. There's a difference, but if there were others in attendance that were actual extremists, then that would explain how Antifa could claim to be just anti-fascist.

Regardless, if there's the word "punch" involved in the publicity materials, it doesn't sound like something I approve of.

How about we clear out some land in the Nevada desert, and we let the Proud Boys and Antifa enter at opposite ends, armed with whatever weapons they choose, and the rest of us can get on with work and shopping.

 

[Thermal]

I wish I shared your view of the PB's disinterest in public affairs. I honestly find it completely baffling. If I weren't already somewhat familiar with you through this forum, I would assume it was insincere.

I get that it could be interpreted as a threat- minimizing argument from a supporter, and I appreciate you considering the POV, rather than dismissing it offhandedly.

I am borderline obsessed with removing narratives from internet and other discussions, and considering things as they are. Its why I signed up to a skeptics forum. So much of what we talk about has a position paper tacked onto it.

I look at the pbs, what they do and have done. I look at what they say, and their prominence, and I see that they are dramatically less than their online portrayal, nationwide. Look at smartcooky's link to that SLPC story upthread. Big sensational headline that the pbs were being contracted like mercenaries. In reality, they (allegedly) looked at some guy for a lawyer and nothing came of it. But that sensational headline was big and bold, like an advertisement for penile enhancement. It fooled smartcooky into thinking there was substance. There wasn't.

I hate smoke and mirrors, and paper tigers.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Their arrival in the public consciousness sounds about right. I remember the Ann Coulter incident.

Coulter isn't an extreme right winger. She is a solid, unwavering, and unapologetic right winger. There's a difference, but if there were others in attendance that were actual extremists, then that would explain how Antifa could claim to be just anti-fascist.

Now removing the vote from women is mainstream right wing not extremist? You seem to have a very far bar to make someone an extreme right winger.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Now removing the vote from women is mainstream right wing not extremist? You seem to have a very far bar to make someone an extreme right winger.

I suppose she's center-right in our new overton window in which Biden is a bleeding left edge commie and the reanimated corpse of Mussolini is the right limit.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

STANDING BY: RIGHT-WING MILITIA GROUPS & THE US ELECTION

Militia groups and other armed non-state actors pose a serious threat to the safety and security of American voters. Throughout the summer and leading up to the general election, these groups have become more assertive, with activities ranging from intervening in protests to organizing kidnapping plots targeting elected officials (CNN, 13 October 2020). Both the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have specifically identified extreme far right-wing and racist movements as a primary risk factor heading into November, describing the election as a potential “flashpoint” for reactionary violence (The Nation, 30 September 2020; New York Times, 6 October 2020).

Although many US militias can be described as ‘latent’ in that they threaten more violence than they commit, several recently organized militias are associated with a right-wing ideology of extreme violence towards communities opposed to their rhetoric and demands for dominance and control. The lack of open sanctions of these groups from public figures and select local law enforcement has given them space to operate, while concurrently allowing political figures to claim little direct responsibility for violent actions from which they hope to benefit.

https://acleddata.com/2020/10/21/standing-by-militias-election/

And right-wing militia groups are often highly competitive with one another, but many have coalesced around this period of heightened political tension, and have even brought Proud Boys and QAnon-linked groups into the fold.

A very in depth report on the current danger of fascist street gangs, militia groups, and general reactionary violence.

Taking these drivers and barriers into account, capitals and peripheral towns, as well as medium-population cities and suburban areas with centralized zones, in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Oregon are deemed to be at highest risk of increased militia activity in the election and post-election period.

I suppose a sufficiently large Biden (or Trump) landslide could largely defuse this danger, but a contested election seems ripe for militia types and associated reactionary groups to take action.

 

[smartcooky]

I look at the pbs, what they do and have done. I look at what they say, and their prominence, and I see that they are dramatically less than their online portrayal, nationwide. Look at smartcooky's link to that SLPC story upthread. Big sensational headline that the pbs were being contracted like mercenaries. In reality, they (allegedly) looked at some guy for a lawyer and nothing came of it. But that sensational headline was big and bold, like an advertisement for penile enhancement. It fooled smartcooky into thinking there was substance. There wasn't.

I hate smoke and mirrors, and paper tigers.

And here's the problem with your way of looking things... you miss the warning signs.

You should at the very least be concerned that a lawyer, that any lawyer, would be using a right wing criminal gang to surveil someone. What part of "Van Dyke used the Arizona chapter of the Proud Boys to conduct surveillance on a Phoenix man as part of a plot to either injure or murder him" do you find unconcerning?

You seem to consider it to be of no consequence, overblown. I consider it a warning sign not to be missed. If you keep ignoring the warning signs, burying your head in the sand and dismissing all the minor bad things as smoke and mirrors and paper tigers, there will eventually come a time when you find that the smoke has dispersed, the mirror has broken, and the tiger has become real, with claws and fangs, and is trying to kill you.