Freedom of speech?

[smartcooky]

I'd like to reiterate the post that you "missed".

And I'd like to reiterate the post that you "missed".

Suburban Turkey, as far as I can tell, you actively and consciously choose an evil approach as a means of retaliation, in preference to a good approach.

Oh my! Please educate us about this "good approach" to dealing with violent, right wing fascists and extremists...

I'm all ears!

Well?

 

[Emily's Cat]

And I'd like to reiterate the post that you "missed".

Well?

Let's see:

• Reform the police department
• Create neighborhood watch & defense groups - with the stress on defense
• Continue to report threats from groups like that to the local police, as well as the local news stations
• ...
• Probably several other things as well

What's not on my list? Turning into violent, left wing fascists and extremists...

 

[Thermal]

Nah, he'll be out among us in no time.

Joking barb aside, this person is probably very dangerous, having just pissed their nascent career away with open nazism. Probably fall into one of the many neo-fascist groups available in this country, maybe he'll shoot up a synagogue in the next few years.

Possibly. Or he might grow up, turn it around, and become a good member of his community like some of my buds. Put a bullet in his young head and there's no question, right?

Perhaps you can understand why someone might want to arm themselves against someone who openly advocated murdering Chinese people while quoting neo-nazi literature.

I understand it. I also understand what wielding a killing tool on the street is all about, and I understand how woefully unprepared someone practicing on paper targets in a nice controlled range once a week is to do so.

 

[smartcooky]

Let's see:

• Reform the police department
• Create neighborhood watch & defense groups - with the stress on defense
• Continue to report threats from groups like that to the local police, as well as the local news stations
• ...
• Probably several other things as well

What's not on my list? Turning into violent, left wing fascists and extremists...

Reform the police department
That's not really an answer to ST's problem. He wants to be involved, get off his arse and do something personally. "Reforming the Police Dept" is likely not within his remit..

Create neighborhood watch & defense groups
Seriously? There aren't enough laughing dogs for this one. "neighborhood watch groups" are intended to deter burglars from burgling suburban homes. They won't stop white supremacist groups from violent actions, at all, not one bit.

Continue to report threats from groups like that to the local police, as well as the local news stations
Well, hundreds, even thousands of people do that all the time. Total effect... ZERO, because the Police you are reporting them to are not interested.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Possibly. Or he might grow up, turn it around, and become a good member of his community like some of my buds. Put a bullet in his young head and there's no question, right?



I understand it. I also understand what wielding a killing tool on the street is all about, and I understand how woefully unprepared someone practicing on paper targets in a nice controlled range once a week is to do so.

Somehow you've straw manned me into advocating preemptive murder. That's cool.

There are plenty of real scenarios in which fascists present opportunities to lawfully and morally kill them in self defense, there's no need to imagine extrajudicial assassination.

 

[Meadmaker]

Somehow you've straw manned me into advocating preemptive murder. That's cool.

There are plenty of real scenarios in which fascists present opportunities to lawfully and morally kill them in self defense, there's no need to imagine extrajudicial assassination.

You are the good guy with the gun, now?


Well, it's legal. Welcome to America.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Let's see:

• Reform the police department
• Create neighborhood watch & defense groups - with the stress on defense
• Continue to report threats from groups like that to the local police, as well as the local news stations
• ...
• Probably several other things as well

What's not on my list? Turning into violent, left wing fascists and extremists...

Showing up to drown out fascists is literally community defense. Even if you object to the guy getting his teeth knocked out by one particularly angry individual, hundreds more attended to express that fascists are not welcome in San Fran.

I'm trying to imagine what a community self defense program would look like that didn't directly confront traveling fascists.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Showing up to drown out fascists is literally community defense. Even if you object to the guy getting his teeth knocked out by one particularly angry individual, hundreds more attended to express that fascists are not welcome in San Fran.

I'm trying to imagine what a community self defense program would look like that didn't directly confront traveling fascists.

I don't think you understand the concept of defense at all.

 

[Thermal]

Here is some remedial reading for you on your "impotent twats"

As promised, I read your links:

My comment was "The Proud Boys, as a group, are impotent twats. Individuals may be trouble" So:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...te-supremacist-group-law-enforcement-agencies

The proud boys are considered a dangerous white supremacist group. Ok. That does not mean they are a force to be reckoned with, or are not twats.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/cr...rges/283-5467ebce-221d-4eb1-b0e1-ba3322847b94

Swinney's arrest. One individual (see the quote you are responding to).

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/04/15/police-proud-boys-used-surveillance-part-violent-plot

Oh goody. The proud boys are alleged to have watched a guy on behalf of a lawyer. That's literally it. No charges even brought.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...ur-years-prison-violent-clash-antifa-n1070166

Two individuals sentenced, eight others plea-ing in the pipeline, for punching and kicking during a riot.

So. With this gish gallop of articles, I stand behind what I said. As a group, impotent twats. You've presented just north of a dozen on street fighting charges as proof they are a force to be reckoned with as a group. I have more personal ******* friends on more serious charges in that time frame. They do little to nothing besides talk that guys don't do in a bar on a given weekend. Per your evidence, this is not the rise of the Reich, kids.

 

[smartcooky]

As promised, I read your links:

My comment was "The Proud Boys, as a group, are impotent twats.

Newsflash Thermal... what are groups made up of?

But, I'm sure there are some very fine people in the Proud Boys... very fine people!

 

[Bubba]

This was two guys disagreeing about politics, and coming to blows, and one of them got a lucky shot in. ... like that's never happened before

If the punch hadn't knocked someone's pearlies out, it might not have even made the news!

The way Trump The Activist Media has divided your country, setting one side against the other, I'm genuinely astonished this doesn't happen more often.

FTFY

 

[smartcooky]

FTFY

No Bubba, Trump's racist rhetoric has divided the country.

Before the media can report what Trump says, he has to say it first!

 

[Bubba]

No Bubba, Trump's racist rhetoric has divided the country.

Before the media can report what Trump says, he has to say it first!

Wrong. Media (their owners) spin the narrative, no matter what anyone says.

 

[Bubba]

Hogwash highlighted:

The right wing is going to commit violence regardless of the election. If anything, a Trump victory will only further embolden them.

 

[Thermal]

Somehow you've straw manned me into advocating preemptive murder. That's cool.

Not the intent, apologies if it came off that way.

There are plenty of real scenarios in which fascists present opportunities to lawfully and morally kill them in self defense, there's no need to imagine extrajudicial assassination.

Ok. Let's imagine how carrying a gun into a violent demonstration might play out, shall we?

Wait...first let's go over what you have already imagined. Even better, let's go over how many hours a week you prepare for how you will fire (and first, secure) this weapon in a crowd.

How often do you train to fire on multiple attackers who have knocked you to the ground from behind, for a start. That's a very realistic possibility.

Wait, too advanced? Let's try simpler. How many hours a week do you practice firing on a moving target at close range, while maintaining enough control to not hit bystanders behind them, like my daughter who also attends counterprotests? How many hours per year? Ever even read a magazine article that touched briefly on the subject?

If the answer to these questions is "none" or "can't be bothered", don't bring a god damned gun into a ******* violent crowd.

 

[Thermal]

Newsflash Thermal... what are groups made up of?

But, I'm sure there are some very fine people in the Proud Boys... very fine people!

Newsflash smartcooky...a dozen street fight charges across four years ain't jack squat for a violent group.

Inexplicable comment to say 'fine people' when I repeatedly say they are impotent twats. Care to clarify?

 

[Meadmaker]

Newsflash smartcooky...a dozen street fight charges across four years ain't jack squat for a violent group.

Inexplicable comment to say 'fine people' when I repeatedly say they are impotent twats. Care to clarify?

Very fine impotent twats.....or something.


It occurred to me that those of us complaining about the puncher in this scenario don't seem to be painting with a broad brush and saying everyone protesting the "free speech" gathering is a bad person. However, if a few violent folks show up at some right wing rally, that is supposed to be proof that all right wingers, or at least everyone in that group, is a bad person.

I know that I have done that a little bit with Antifa. I honestly can't recall if I've done it in this thread.

I associate Antifa with the people who wear masks that are deliberately designed to hide their identity. I'm willing to criticize all of them. I think anyone who wears such a mask, even if they don't commit violence themselves, is helping to facilitate violence of the other mask-wearers (i.e disguise masks, not Covid masks). I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, though. Antifa might be larger than the group of mask wearers.

My opinion is that the people committing the violence are bad people. Also, an organization that encourages violence is an organization made up of bad people, or at best misled dupes of bad people. However, you have to be careful about labelling everyone in an organization as bad people when a few people in that organization commit violence.

Do the Proud Boys, as an organization, encourage violence? It seems like they might, even if their documents nominally claim otherwise. I honestly don't know.

I don't know if Antifa is a real organization. I guess it isn't. I would say that the mask-wearers among them are bad people. I'm not sure how that group of people relates to the larger group of people that might be called "Antifa".

 

[Thermal]

Very fine impotent twats.....or something.


It occurred to me that those of us complaining about the puncher in this scenario don't seem to be painting with a broad brush and saying everyone protesting the "free speech" gathering is a bad person. However, if a few violent folks show up at some right wing rally, that is supposed to be proof that all right wingers, or at least everyone in that group, is a bad person.

I know that I have done that a little bit with Antifa. I honestly can't recall if I've done it in this thread.

I associate Antifa with the people who wear masks that are deliberately designed to hide their identity. I'm willing to criticize all of them. I think anyone who wears such a mask, even if they don't commit violence themselves, is helping to facilitate violence of the other mask-wearers (i.e disguise masks, not Covid masks). I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, though. Antifa might be larger than the group of mask wearers.

My opinion is that the people committing the violence are bad people. Also, an organization that encourages violence is an organization made up of bad people, or at best misled dupes of bad people. However, you have to be careful about labelling everyone in an organization as bad people when a few people in that organization commit violence.

Do the Proud Boys, as an organization, encourage violence? It seems like they might, even if their documents nominally claim otherwise. I honestly don't know.

My best guess is that they are a half-assed gang for guys who want to fight but aren't really bad enough to cut it in an actual gang. They claim to basically be unapologetic chauvanists, male-only membership. No jerking off for some reason. I think they openly encourage and plan to initiate violence, but only against those they expect not to put up that hard of a fight. By their own admission, they advance a degree in their hierarchy by punching antifa 'enemies'.

I don't know if Antifa is a real organization. I guess it isn't. I would say that the mask-wearers among them are bad people. I'm not sure how that group of people relates to the larger group of people that might be called "Antifa".

I tend to agree with the 'ideology' descriptor. The local antifa in my neck o' the woods is a mixed bag, ranging from apoliticals who just hate nazi types to communist advocates. Nothing tying them together except dislike of neo-nazis, and the willingness to get up and do something about it.

eta: wearing masks is only a tactic, because neo-nazis are big on doxxing and getting the word out on their 'enemies'. Self-protection is not a crime (says the guy smashing windows).

 

[Meadmaker]

My best guess is that they are a half-assed gang for guys who want to fight but aren't really bad enough to cut it in an actual gang. They claim to basically be unapologetic chauvanists, male-only membership. No jerking off for some reason. I think they openly encourage and plan to initiate violence, but only against those they expect not to put up that hard of a fight. By their own admission, they advance a degree in their hierarchy by punching antifa 'enemies'.

So, ********.

I tend to agree with the 'ideology' descriptor. The local antifa in my neck o' the woods is a mixed bag, ranging from apoliticals who just hate nazi types to communist advocates. Nothing tying them together except dislike of neo-nazis, and the willingness to get up and do something about it.

eta: wearing masks is only a tactic, because neo-nazis are big on doxxing and getting the word out on their 'enemies'. Self-protection is not a crime (says the guy smashing windows).

When I first started hearing about them, they weren't protesting against nazi types. They were protesting against right wingers. Maybe I was misled about exactly who they were protesting. Anyone who was on the right was a fascist, I guess.

With no official organization, it's kind of hard to say.

I doubt that they are really afraid of doxxing, though. At that San Fran gathering, there were a couple of hundred people there, and only a few wore masks, and one of the ones who was wearing a mask did the punching. I think he was wearing a mask because he thought that would make him unidentifiable to police. Looks like that didn't work out so well for him.

 

[smartcooky]

When I first started hearing about them, they weren't protesting against nazi types. They were protesting against right wingers.

Well that is just plain wrong. Antifa have always been Anti-Fascist - their targets are neo-Nazi and other extreme right wing groups.

Maybe I was misled about exactly who they were protesting.

Apparently!