Freedom of speech?

[TurkeysGhost]

This is exactly why I get concerned when our side starts ramping up to knocking teeth out amidst cheers of approval. I don't want us to be on an even playing field. I want us to be the good guys, and them the violent criminals till it is indisputable who is who.

I don't know what magic moment you're waiting to come. Proud Boys have been doing their travelling road show since 2016. Some of the guys have already been to prison and back for violent acts and are back at it again.

Nothing is going to happen by waiting. There is no great revelation of Good and Evil.

It is noteworthy that armed, rowdy antifascists standing up to them is what it took to finally get local government to force their cops to take action. It's a straight line from the shooting of Jay Danielson to the belated arrest of Allan Swinney that made Portland a bit safer. Absent that, the cops would have kept looking the other way while the Proud Boys rolled through town in armed convoy vehicles with no license plates.

Keeping our hands clean and letting fash dominate the public square is a losing strategy.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Ken White on a Sixth circuit decision

From reading the essays to which I linked, I sense that there is a grey area. Heckling a speaker is OK but not when it is so severe that the speech cannot continue. Another grey area is when it is justified for the police to shut down a talk.

See this 2015 essay by Ken White on the latter point.

"The Sixth Circuit found that the evidence showed that the cops here made no serious effort to control the crowd, and instead went straight for the shut-up-the-speaker remedy."

 

[TurkeysGhost]

See this 2015 essay by Ken White on the latter point.

"The Sixth Circuit found that the evidence showed that the cops here made no serious effort to control the crowd, and instead went straight for the shut-up-the-speaker remedy."

SFPD notably did not threaten any of the fleeing protestors with arrest in order to coerce them to stop 1A protected activity. Perhaps they would have had toothless not been extremely open to the idea of a hasty retreat, but that's a counterfactual.

I do think it's interesting that the court stated the cops have a duty to protect these people from violence. I wonder if that would survive SCOTUS review, as they already have ruled repeatedly that cops have no affirmative duty to actually protect citizens.

 

[Thermal]

I don't know what magic moment you're waiting to come. Proud Boys have been doing their travelling road show since 2016. Some of the guys have already been to prison and back for violent acts and are back at it again.

Nothing is going to happen by waiting. There is no great revelation of Good and Evil.

It is noteworthy that armed, rowdy antifascists standing up to them is what it took to finally get local government to force their cops to take action. It's a straight line from the shooting of Jay Danielson to the belated arrest of Allan Swinney that made Portland a bit safer. Absent that, the cops would have kept looking the other way while the Proud Boys rolled through town in armed convoy vehicles with no license plates.

Keeping our hands clean and letting fash dominate the public square is a losing strategy.

And we have had whacked out violent extremists in our midst since we reared up on our hind legs.

Yes, Proud Pussies et al are a threat, but not a society altering one. They have no political aspirations. Their interest is in being a presence in the gutter, not in public office. Once it is agreed to make the streets a free for all, things are less safe for everyone. Including my kids. Including you.

If the Proud Bitches had their SF demonstration, and antifa (presumably) didn't throw down, what do you think would have happened? They would be Illinois Nazis, marching around and little else. Why do you think they so often call the 'left' the enemy? Because antifa are willingly setting themselves up as an opposite number, so everybody has a fighting team.

This is freaking playground mentality, but it's no freaking game. Dead bodies are real, and every bit of participation we indulge in bears some responsibility.

Hey, let's encourage kids to meet violence with violence on the street! WCGW?

I'm not personally doing any skull cracking. I'm not encouraging my kids to, either. Are you? If not, who are you cheering on to be sacrificed on our side? That's right, gullible ******* kids lost in an antihero Captain America fantasy, just like Kyle. **** that noise man.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't know what magic moment you're waiting to come. Proud Boys have been doing their travelling road show since 2016. Some of the guys have already been to prison and back for violent acts and are back at it again.

Nothing is going to happen by waiting. There is no great revelation of Good and Evil.

It is noteworthy that armed, rowdy antifascists standing up to them is what it took to finally get local government to force their cops to take action. It's a straight line from the shooting of Jay Danielson to the belated arrest of Allan Swinney that made Portland a bit safer. Absent that, the cops would have kept looking the other way while the Proud Boys rolled through town in armed convoy vehicles with no license plates.

Keeping our hands clean and letting fash dominate the public square is a losing strategy.

Yes indeed! Only 80 to 90 years ago, our fathers and/or grandfathers watched what happened when people looked the other way while trying to keep their hands clean. They experienced the terrible consequences of that (in)action.

Peace in our time, my arse!

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And we have had whacked out violent extremists in our midst since we reared up on our hind legs.

Yes, Proud Pussies et al are a threat, but not a society altering one. They have no political aspirations. Their interest is in being a presence in the gutter, not in public office. Once it is agreed to make the streets a free for all, things are less safe for everyone. Including my kids. Including you.

If the Proud Bitches had their SF demonstration, and antifa (presumably) didn't throw down, what do you think would have happened? They would be Illinois Nazis, marching around and little else. Why do you think they so often call the 'left' the enemy? Because antifa are willingly setting themselves up as an opposite number, so everybody has a fighting team.

This is freaking playground mentality, but it's no freaking game. Dead bodies are real, and every bit of participation we indulge in bears some responsibility.

Hey, let's encourage kids to meet violence with violence on the street! WCGW?

I'm not personally doing any skull cracking. I'm not encouraging my kids to, either. Are you? If not, who are you cheering on to be sacrificed on our side? That's right, gullible ******* kids lost in an antihero Captain America fantasy, just like Kyle. **** that noise man.

I don't see it as a great move, mostly out of self preservation, to instigate violence at these kinds of events, but think showing up prepared to defend yourselves against known violent actors is the correct action.

We know what happens when counter protestors show up to these events thinking that the rules of decency apply. Ask the people in Salem that got absolutely hammered by armed proud boys when they thought they could wave flags and signs peacefully.

Our tooth collector is probably regretting his actions, mostly because he's catching a felony charge. Probably should not have done that, or at least done more to conceal his identity. That probably wasn't a wise move, though I understand the sentiment. I have nothing unkind to say about him or the bottle throwers though, though it is likely action I would not consider advisable.

I have attended many protests in my area, which is admittedly not a violent hotspot like others. I tend to carry a firearm (legally) concealed when I know it's going to be an event with explicit fascists, and pepper spray when it's just your average MAGA CHUDs. I don't seek out violent confrontation, and fascists are usually so outnumbered here they aren't willing to start any fights.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Seriously, man. This isn't even a partisan thing. It's a civilized ******* human being thing. We can't be a bunch of rabid dogs going at each others throats and claim moral high ground and award ourselves participation medals.

Fact is there are very few "posts" on this very forum that can argue for "higher ground". I saw so many (now removed) wishing President Trump dead during his bout with Covid. Why would you expect any different from those with the same views/agenda? A quick online search of political philosophies that condone violence and devalue Humanity/human life will show you whom you're actually dealing with.

Political violence is often the answer to suppress views that are different than one's chosen party. It's a common means to silence the opposition when your chosen political philosophy cannot logically rebut a specific argument or position.

Notice the sophomoric labelling and name calling within the forum. It's hilarious at times, but very telling as well. There is no doubt that Free Speech is at stake during the upcoming election.

 

[Emily's Cat]

My concern with a lot of this is the normalization of politically motivated street violence and it's inevitable escalation. Its a very short walk to my daughters being attacked for a Democrat-themed t-shirt, and I'd rather not be even theoretically supportive of that.

Yep.

 

[Meadmaker]

There is no equivalency in any of these events.

Perhaps you misremember Unite the Right, but it was more than LARPers with shields playing capture the flag. Members of longtime terrorist orgs, like the KKK, showed up heavily armed. One KKK member discharged a firearm and likely intended to commit murder had he not had problems with his pistol. A local man was beaten nearly to death in a parking garage by a mob of fascists that traveled from out of state, there was a massive melee where the "alt right" beat the local protestors, and the event ended with a nazi driving his car into a crowd of people, killing 1 and maiming many more. But yeah, "both sides".

Over and over again, these events show that "both sides" is simply untrue. The right is violent at a frequency and intensity that has no parity from the left. They organize these events with the explicit purpose of instigating these confrontations, and are first to escalate the intensity of violence at any sign of resistance.

I watched a lot of UTR video.

There were bad people on both sides.

No good comes out of excusing the violence of "our side", but that's just my opinion.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I watched a lot of UTR video.

There were bad people on both sides.

No good comes out of excusing the violence of "our side", but that's just my opinion.

Do you think the number of bad apples, of the relative badness of the apples, were comparable? One side seems significantly more rotten than the other, don't you think?

 

[Meadmaker]

Do you think the number of bad apples, of the relative badness of the apples, were comparable? One side seems significantly more rotten than the other, don't you think?

Yes, but what is the point of the question? "Our side" isn't as bad as "their side"? So at one rally, "our side" was better than Nazis? You're setting a low bar there. And is it enough to win, or does there have to be a point spread? If "our side" is slightly better than "their side" , is it still a W?


But at a different place, "our side" burned down shops and broke windows of people who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever it was that "our side" was protesting.

In San Francisco this weekend, "our side" knocked out a guy's teeth, caused some sort of injury to three cops and one other rally participant, and "their side" didn't do anything, although maybe they might have done something or wanted to do something. In Salem a few weeks back, apparently both sides showed up with paintballs at the ready.

Bah.

My side is the one that doesn't punch other people, even if they say stupid things. If they are really, really, bad, and in public, I might join in some sort of ridicule of them.

 

[johnny karate]

Yes, but what is the point of the question? "Our side" isn't as bad as "their side"? So at one rally, "our side" was better than Nazis? You're setting a low bar there. And is it enough to win, or does there have to be a point spread? If "our side" is slightly better than "their side" , is it still a W?


But at a different place, "our side" burned down shops and broke windows of people who had absolutely nothing to do with whatever it was that "our side" was protesting.

In San Francisco this weekend, "our side" knocked out a guy's teeth, caused some sort of injury to three cops and one other rally participant, and "their side" didn't do anything, although maybe they might have done something or wanted to do something. In Salem a few weeks back, apparently both sides showed up with paintballs at the ready.

Bah.

My side is the one that doesn't punch other people, even if they say stupid things. If they are really, really, bad, and in public, I might join in some sort of ridicule of them.

In fairness, “your side” doesn’t do much of anything other than stand on the sidelines and selectively criticize.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I watched a lot of UTR video.

There were bad people on both sides.

No good comes out of excusing the violence of "our side", but that's just my opinion.

Just like in WWII, you have the violent antifa and the fascists mixing it up. Lots of bad on both sides.

Is that the opposite of Trumps there are good people on both sides response to white supremacists rallies?

 

[phiwum]

In fairness, “your side” doesn’t do much of anything other than stand on the sidelines and selectively criticize.

I don't think that's fair at all. Meadmaker hasn't selectively criticized. He's said that violence to suppress speech is bad. That applies to both the left and the right.

He's been careful to say that the violence we've seen from the right is much worse than the sucker punch we're discussing here, but that doesn't make punching a Proud Boy unprovoked okay.

I agree with everything Meadmaker has said. Saying that one's own side is merely pretty bad and the other side is worse is weak. Even worse are those who find punching a Proud Boy positively delightful.

A principled person can find the Proud Boys despicable and guilty of promoting violence while still saying that this particular act in this particular context was also wrong --- not morally equivalent but wrong nonetheless.

 

[johnny karate]

I don't think that's fair at all. Meadmaker hasn't selectively criticized. He's said that violence to suppress speech is bad. That applies to both the left and the right.

He's been careful to say that the violence we've seen from the right is much worse than the sucker punch we're discussing here, but that doesn't make punching a Proud Boy unprovoked okay.

I agree with everything Meadmaker has said. Saying that one's own side is merely pretty bad and the other side is worse is weak. Even worse are those who find punching a Proud Boy positively delightful.

A principled person can find the Proud Boys despicable and guilty of promoting violence while still saying that this particular act in this particular context was also wrong --- not morally equivalent but wrong nonetheless.

Could you provide a link to any threads Meadmaker has started to specifically decry the Proud Boys or right wing violence in general?

 

[Thermal]

I don't see it as a great move, mostly out of self preservation, to instigate violence at these kinds of events, but think showing up prepared to defend yourselves against known violent actors is the correct action.

We know what happens when counter protestors show up to these events thinking that the rules of decency apply. Ask the people in Salem that got absolutely hammered by armed proud boys when they thought they could wave flags and signs peacefully.

And I am 100% down with that.

Our tooth collector is probably regretting his actions, mostly because he's catching a felony charge. Probably should not have done that, or at least done more to conceal his identity. That probably wasn't a wise move, though I understand the sentiment. I have nothing unkind to say about him or the bottle throwers though, though it is likely action I would not consider advisable.

This should pretty clearly spotlight our disagreements. Being literally the most violent criminal at an otherwise peaceful rally takes some of the shine off the Noble Warrior narrative. And no, what other guys did at other rallies makes no difference. Here, hommes instigated felony physical violence against Anderson, who, as far as we know, has hurt no one (he said something about beating the **** out of people who tried to stop the them, immediately and oddly cut off abruptly in the video, like the context may have changed). Either way, one side was all talk, and the other all felonious assault.

I have attended many protests in my area, which is admittedly not a violent hotspot like others. I tend to carry a firearm (legally) concealed when I know it's going to be an event with explicit fascists, and pepper spray when it's just your average MAGA CHUDs. I don't seek out violent confrontation, and fascists are usually so outnumbered here they aren't willing to start any fights.

Jesus Christ man. You have been cheering killing chuds on multiple threads, saying the only good fash is a dead fash, and the 'fash' in question are largely a bunch of blowhard chauvanists punks, and now you are saying you are carrying a firearm into ******* crowds and are preparing to use it??? You literally are saying you are prepared to fire a handgun in a crowd, which would likely be overwhelmingly antifa and collateral victims all around you. What in the ever loving ****, man?

Dude: leave the ******* guns home if you are going into large crowds where you expect fighting to break out. Ask Kyle Rittenhouse or any child hit by stray bullets why.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

And I am 100% down with that.







This should pretty clearly spotlight our disagreements. Being literally the most violent criminal at an otherwise peaceful rally takes some of the shine off the Noble Warrior narrative. And no, what other guys did at other rallies makes no difference. Here, hommes instigated felony physical violence against Anderson, who, as far as we know, has hurt no one (he said something about beating the **** out of people who tried to stop the them, immediately and oddly cut off abruptly in the video, like the context may have changed). Either way, one side was all talk, and the other all felonious assault.







Jesus Christ man. You have been cheering killing chuds on multiple threads, saying the only good fash is a dead fash, and the 'fash' in question are largely a bunch of blowhard chauvanists punks, and now you are saying you are carrying a firearm into ******* crowds and are preparing to use it??? You literally are saying you are prepared to fire a handgun in a crowd, which would likely be overwhelmingly antifa and collateral victims all around you. What in the ever loving ****, man?



Dude: leave the ******* guns home if you are going into large crowds where you expect fighting to break out. Ask Kyle Rittenhouse or any child hit by stray bullets why.

You're being willfully naive about the nature of the threat. Local fascist group nsc-131 regularly attends protests in my area. They are linked to The Base, a group that was conspiring to commit multiple murder. a German associate chapter was raided by the police after stockpiling illegal weapons. Several of their members and associates have criminal records for armed assault.

I'll keep carrying at these protests. These people are dangerous. Like the Rittenhouse example showed, bravery and a skateboard are poor weapons for dealing with armed extremists.

It wasn't my intention to derail this thread with details of my personal habits regarding fascists at protests. I will not discuss this particular detail further

 

[Thermal]

You're being willfully naive about the nature of the threat. Local fascist group nsc-131 regularly attends protests in my area. They are linked to The Base, a group that was conspiring to commit multiple murder. Several of their members and associates have criminal records for armed assault.

I'll keep carrying at these protests. These people are dangerous. Like the Rittenhouse example showed, bravery and a skateboard is poor weapons for dealing with armed extremists.
It wasn't my intention to derail this thread with details of my personal habits regarding fascists at protests. I will not discuss this particular detail further

Yeah, think about this one. Captain Kyle thought the exact same thing.

It's your prerogative to not discuss it, and of course I will respect that. Maybe we'll see you on the news one day soon. I hope it's not because you got hit from behind by some kid lost in his own Captain America fantasy that decided you are an 'armed extremist' and acts accordingly.

 

[Meadmaker]

Could you provide a link to any threads Meadmaker has started to specifically decry the Proud Boys or right wing violence in general?

Jesus Christ! I was going to write something and then I saw that you said it had to be threads I started. Contributing isn't even enough.

The world is full of people demanding loyalty oaths these days. "Hmmmm.....he called armed militia groups 'yahoos'.....but that doesn't sound sufficiently sincere to me......."

If you were to do a thorough investigation into what I write about on the subject, you would see a lot of cases where I began by questioning what seemed to be the dominant narrative, and then looking up and finding facts about it. It's a skepticism thing. When I see behavior described that doesn't seem normal, but does seem to play into stereotypes, I wonder about it, and always suspect there's something else in play that hasn't been presented.

Sometimes, I investigate and find out that there is, in fact, a lot of things not presented. Sometimes, I investigate and find that, in reality, the people involved really were every bit as stupid or evil as portrayed in the media. It varies.

But I wondered what I had written on the subject, and I got to wondering how I would even look it up. I knew a word I often used to describe right wingers with guns was "yahoos", so I searched for posts I had written that used that word.

 

[Emily's Cat]

My side is the one that doesn't punch other people, even if they say stupid things. If they are really, really, bad, and in public, I might join in some sort of ridicule of them.