Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[JoeMorgue]

They don't "make me a woman" but those social interactions are a pretty fundamental element of the experience of being a woman.

Would you make that same statement to a black person, who repeatedly comes back to the challenges and barriers they face as a black person being an intrinsic element of their lived experience and their identity as a black person in the US?

Yes I would, absolutely. Carlton was as black as Will on the Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

"I'm not really an X unless I'm **** on for being an X" is a hooooooorrriiibble mentality. You can link your self identity to your downtroddeness and ever expect anything to get better.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hmm... and yet somehow your attacks are all against biological females who disagree with your views. I note a conspicuous lack of aggressiveness toward biological males who disagree with your views. One might be inclined to connect some dots there and draw inferences regarding your view toward females.

You haven't stopped to consider whether it might possibly be because it was biological females within this thread who were a) expressing the most extreme and entrenched anti-trans-rights views, and b) expressing those views the most vociferously and stridently?

 

[d4m10n]

...if society ever reaches the point where there is literally zero distinction in the way that men and women are viewed & treated . . . then there will be no such thing as gender dysphoria.

Not so. Many patients would still experience "strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics" along with "strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender" which are two of the current diagnostic criteria.

 

[LondonJohn]

How about people who express a total lack of sympathy for females? I sit okay to [point out that people who express a total lack of sympathy for females continue to express a total lack of sympathy for females?

Of course it's OK. But only if those people actually are expressing "a total lack of sympathy for females"....

 

[Earthborn]

No, you're right... but it does require pretending that the binary nature of sex doesn't exist.

No, one can still believe that it exists. One just has stop pretending that it is a meaningful or important differentiator.

I'm fine w/ that approach, in terms of how people are socialized, but wouldn't it make the idea of transition from one gender to another sort of vacuous?

Yes. Is that a problem?

Unfortunately, I suspect that Rolfe's position is that all instances of gender dysphoria and transgender identity are - by definition - delusions

That's more MisAndreG's thing. Rolfe's is a bit more nuanced than that.

 

[Meadmaker]

I suspect that even a cursory physical examination by a competent physician would allow them to form a reasonably accurate provisional conclusion as to whether the person in front of them was biologically male or female.......

You wouldn't even need a competent physician. A girl in a locker room could do the same.

 

[LondonJohn]

You seem to have a habit of speaking quite authoritatively on topics where you have no authority whatsoever.

From whence comes your deep knowledge of what emergency doctors do and what their priorities are?

Oh boy, here we go again *draws breath*


Firstly, this is sheer common sense.

Secondly, I do happen to know what I'm talking about.

Thirdly:

"In pregnant trauma patients, initial priority is stabilization of the woman, which is the best way to ensure fetal stability."

https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-jp/pr...trauma-patient/approach-to-the-trauma-patient


So I suppose a more reasonable question might be this: from whence comes your kneejerk sarcastic and withering accusation that I am invalidated from offering a view on what emergency doctors do and what their priorities are?

 

[LondonJohn]

Not so. Many patients would still experience "strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics" along with "strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender" which are two of the current diagnostic criteria.

Well no, because a desire to change sex characteristics in gender dysphoria is only a product of the fact that gender and sex are so intertwined in society. I don't for example, think that there are many (if any) people with gender dysphoria whose sole desire - in terms of their gender dysphoria and change of gender identity - is to alter their physical appearance in order to more closely resemble the opposite biological sex to their birth sex.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, one can still believe that it exists. One just has stop pretending that it is a meaningful or important differentiator.

I get stuck here. How is it not a meaningful and important differentiator? It's a meaningful and important differentiator in every species on the planet that reproduces sexually.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm sorry: attacking the views of people who vociferously deny transgender rights

is not

attacking females (or women).


(And fortunately, plenty of female women understand and support transgender rights)

True. At least, it certainly isn't attacking all females.

But then again, no one in this thread is advocating denying all transgender rights, either, vociferously or otherwise.

 

[LondonJohn]

You wouldn't even need a competent physician. A girl in a locker room could do the same.

I agree.

As, probably, could a boy in a locker room wrt most trans men.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Secondly, I do happen to know what I'm talking about.

From whence comes your authoritative knowledge?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well no, because a desire to change sex characteristics in gender dysphoria is only a product of the fact that gender and sex are so intertwined in society. I don't for example, think that there are many (if any) people with gender dysphoria whose sole desire - in terms of their gender dysphoria and change of gender identity - is to alter their physical appearance in order to more closely resemble the opposite biological sex to their birth sex.

Boudicca's responses earlier in this thread would indicate otherwise. She was pretty certain that absent any gender roles, she would still feel disconnected from her body. In particular, if she had grown up on an island completely populated by males, with no females at all, and no word for "woman" she expressed that she would still feel like there was a discontinuity between her physical presences and her internal sense of self.

 

[LondonJohn]

True. At least, it certainly isn't attacking all females.

But then again, no one in this thread is advocating denying all transgender rights, either, vociferously or otherwise.

Ah but the problem is that the views of certain people are seemingly attempting to simultaneously 1) be in support of transgender rights in principle, while 2) being opposed to transgender rights in practice.

 

[d4m10n]

Yes. Is that a problem?

If transition from one gender to the other is generally the best treatment for gender dysphoria, yes.

 

[LondonJohn]

Boudicca's responses earlier in this thread would indicate otherwise. She was pretty certain that absent any gender roles, she would still feel disconnected from her body. In particular, if she had grown up on an island completely populated by males, with no females at all, and no word for "woman" she expressed that she would still feel like there was a discontinuity between her physical presences and her internal sense of self.

Well perhaps. But I think there's a good reason why it's called "gender dysphoria", and not "(biological) sex dysphoria".

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ah but the problem is that the views of certain people are seemingly attempting to simultaneously 1) be in support of transgender rights in principle, while 2) being opposed to transgender rights in practice.

Or, you know, fully supportive as transgender rights as transgender rights, but opposed to the subversion and loss of female rights.

 

[d4m10n]

Well no, because a desire to change sex characteristics in gender dysphoria is only a product of the fact that gender and sex are so intertwined in society.

Citation needed.

I don't for example, think that there are many (if any) people with gender dysphoria whose sole desire - in terms of their gender dysphoria and change of gender identity - is to alter their physical appearance in order to more closely resemble the opposite biological sex to their birth sex.

Ditto.

 

[Meadmaker]

Ah but the problem is that the views of certain people are seemingly attempting to simultaneously 1) be in support of transgender rights in principle, while 2) being opposed to transgender rights in practice.

No one, and I mean literally no one, who participates in this thread or its predecessors, is "opposed to transgender rights in practice". They (and by they I mean we) are opposed to certain rights (or should I say "rights") for transgenders, but not other rights.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well perhaps. But I think there's a good reason why it's called "gender dysphoria", and not "(biological) sex dysphoria".

You can hold whatever personal opinion you like. Your personal opinion and assumptions aren't authoritative though.