Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

[TurkeysGhost]

Many diabetics do - especially Type 1 diabetics. I carry information on my person and in my phone identifying that I'm epileptic. Partly because that might be the cause of why I'm in the ER to begin with, and also because certain medicines with interfere with my antiseizure drugs which could cause a seizure.

Yes, medical bracelets are somewhat common for conditions that might suddenly render a person unresponsive.

Trans status is not such a condition. There are scores of other conditions in which people do not bother to declare through tokens on their person, many of which have much more profound health implications.

 

[Emily's Cat]

yes yes, us silly men intruding on your realm of expertise again.

The situation described was an emergency situation in which the patient was unconscious and could not communicate their medical history.

I assure you, pregnancy tests are way down the priority list for cis women that show up unresponsive to the ER. Docs are going to be too concerned with whether there's heartbeat and respiration to worry about such things.

Lol, you "assure" me, as if you have some great depth of knowledge when it comes to the practice of medicine.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[d4m10n]

Well, yeah, that is kind of the point. To make the concepts of "woman" and "man" disappear and replace them with equality regardless of sex.

I'm fine w/ that approach, in terms of how people are socialized, but wouldn't it make the idea of transition from one gender to another sort of vacuous?

 

[Emily's Cat]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1419&pictureid=12641[/qimg]

The "sex eliminationist" does not require a binary concept of gender.

No, you're right... but it does require pretending that the binary nature of sex doesn't exist.

 

[caveman1917]

Medical labelling is usually reserved for fairly severe conditions. Do most diabetics even carry such marks? That strikes me as a much more likely source of a medical emergency, and much more likely to be useful information.

If it is such a more likely source of a medical emergency and more likely to be useful information, then they probably should. Whether most actually do is another question, an entirely uninteresting one as most people are idiots anyway, so appealing to what most of them do is hardly an argument.

I trust you understand why members of historically marginalized and stigmatized groups might be resistant to carrying a special designation on their person declaring their "other-ness".

Except that your comparison doesn't quite hold, as we're talking about a friggin' note in one's wallet, and not a David star to be worn on top of one's clothing. As well as that we're not actually talking about forcing anyone to do anything, I'm mostly just surprised on an individual level that Boudicca doesn't do so, because to me it would be "well duh!" in the same way as having adverse reactions to commonly used drugs is a "well duh!" regarding putting a note with that information in one's wallet. How does consistently having to verbally correct doctors on that information not ring a bell like "Hey, this information seems quite relevant in this specific context, maybe I should make sure those assumptions still get corrected even if I can't do so verbally myself"?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not everyone has christened themselves as defenders of an entire gender.

No... but some of you have certainly christened yourselves the attackers of the other sex.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Lol, you "assure" me, as if you have some great depth of knowledge when it comes to the practice of medicine.

You don't know what you're talking about.

A systematic approach to the unconscious patient

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6330912/

Assessment of the Awake but Unresponsive Patient

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419301/

CRTL+F: pregnancy. No hits.

Plenty of discussion about overdose, diabetes, cardio-respiratory distress, trauma, brain injury, nervous disorder, etc, not much concern about sex-specific ailments.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm fine w/ that approach, in terms of how people are socialized, but wouldn't it make the idea of transition from one gender to another sort of vacuous?

*Laughs* Finally someone who's not me brings it up so maybe someone will answer.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

No... but some of you have certainly christened yourselves the attackers of the other sex.

I wasn't aware TERFs were a third sex. I attack TERFs, not women.

 

[caveman1917]

I wasn't aware TERFs were a third sex. I attack TERFs, not women.

No you attack women who disobey or refuse to repeat your claims, calling them TERFs is just your way of "othering" them and justifying your behaviour. For someone who refers to historical oppression so much you sure are completely unaware that racists claim not to be attacking black people but only the "thugs" among them, or that misogynists claim not to be attacking women but only the "uppity" among them (or "TERFs" as the new terminology goes).

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes, medical bracelets are somewhat common for conditions that might suddenly render a person unresponsive.

Trans status is not such a condition. There are scores of other conditions in which people do not bother to declare through tokens on their person, many of which have much more profound health implications.

Dude, I answered the question that you asked. Literally.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Emily - I've generally been on your "side" (again I hate using that term and concept within a discussion with as much variance and nuance as this one but such is as it is...) but you define your..... femininity I guess why too much via the hardships your sex has to face.

Basically you always seem to come back to acting as if people aren't real women if they aren't having their lives constantly made worse just by being women. Like you aren't a woman until you suffer because you're a woman.

You are not defined by your struggles and trials as much as you think you are, especially not on the biological sex and social gender.

Having men hate you. Being scared of rape. Being discriminated because of your gender. These don't make you a woman.

 

[Ziggurat]

Maybe you should find a better example than someone who basically admits he did it to try to delegitimize transpeople in sports. And I know it's obvious to you too, so you can stop trying to pull this crap. Zuby is faking, and he's doing it to try to restrict our rights.

Yes, I know he's faking it. But you're missing the point.

There's a vast space between you and Zuby, and I know there's a dividing line somewhere in there. He's on one side, you're on another. Nobody is disputing that. We all agree on that.

But where, in that vast space between you, is that dividing line? How do I find it? How do we determine which side of that line someone other than you or Zuby is on? It doesn't suffice to say that it's somewhere between you and Zuby. Yes, I know that. We all know that. But that doesn't suffice, because there are harder cases. I picked Zuby precisely because he's an easy case, not because he's a hard case. That gives you basically all the freedom you could ask for in crafting how you want to draw the line between you.

And I find it quite troubling that, even given this maximally easy case, you still won't actually draw a line. That's a problem. And it's a problem that you don't even recognize that it's a problem.

If you don't see a difference between him and an actual transperson, that's your problem to deal with, don't insult me with this.

Again, you're missing the point entirely.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks for the answer.


For what it's worth, I think your belief is an outlier.

LOL.

(If by "outlier" you mean a) present-day mainstream medical/scientific belief and b) the law.....)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I can't respect Zuby because he won't commit to the bit. if he really wanted to stick it to trans people he'd go under HRT for the minimum period of time specified by governing agencies and then go break the records.

A real reactionary would become femme to own the libs. What a coward

 

[LondonJohn]

There is nothing misrepresenting my anatomy on my records. It's just that I am listed as female on my records and so they tend to ask me questions they would ask of other women. Like "How long has it been since your last pap smear?" or "How long has it been since you last menstruated?" I never misrepresent myself either by saying I have a part I don't have, I just point out that it's not relevant to me.

I'm finding these questions/views about the relationship between a transgender person and the medical professionals treating them.... to be bizarre at best, symptomatic of an ongoing misunderstanding of the situation as a "medium", and flat-out trolling at worst.

 

[LondonJohn]

You do know that transsexuals are tested whether they are suffering from delusions, right? And that they are only diagnosed "transsexual" if they do not?

Unfortunately, I suspect that Rolfe's position is that all instances of gender dysphoria and transgender identity are - by definition - delusions

 

[Emily's Cat]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6330912/



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC419301/

CRTL+F: pregnancy. No hits.

Plenty of discussion about overdose, diabetes, cardio-respiratory distress, trauma, brain injury, nervous disorder, etc, not much concern about sex-specific ailments.

From your first link...

As the ABC assessment is undertaken, other team members should be:

taking blood tests...

Your second link is irrelevant, it's focused on psychiatric causes of non-responsiveness.

On the other hand...
Why Does the Emergency Room Draw Blood?

5. Pregnancy
At other times, it may be crucial to a woman’s treatment to know if she is pregnant or not.

Every time I've gone to the ER after the onset of puberty, I've been tested for possible pregnancy. That includes the two times I was unconscious and the one time I was minimally responsive.

 

[LondonJohn]

It is a relatively recent development to consider sex and gender to mean different things.

That's true. But that's only because until fairly recently, the prevailing belief was that gender identity was inextricably bound to biological sex* - and that therefore it made no sense to draw any distinction between sex and gender, since they were effectively interchangeable and synonymous.

Fortunately (not just for those who have gender dysphoria, but also for society as a whole) we now know differently.


* ie the belief was that all biological females were women, and that all women were biological females (and likewise with males/men)

 

[Emily's Cat]

I wasn't aware TERFs were a third sex. I attack TERFs, not women.

Hmm... and yet somehow your attacks are all against biological females who disagree with your views. I note a conspicuous lack of aggressiveness toward biological males who disagree with your views. One might be inclined to connect some dots there and draw inferences regarding your view toward females.