Cont: Trans Women are not Women 4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Not during stabilization procedures themselves of course, it's not like, say, electrical cardioversion is performed differently on males and females. But for diagnosing the actual underlying condition? Yes, a differential diagnosis may very well rest on the patient's sex, as several diseases either occur only in one sex, occur significantly more frequently in one sex, or have different symptomology depending on sex.

Once the crisis of stabilizing a patient is over, medical staff have to contemplate a wide variety of possible variables when diagnosing. Medical staff are aware of the existence of trans people this will be simply another of the many possible variables at play in diagnosing an unknown condition.

There will probably be errors, medicine is tricky. I don't see why trans status is requires such heavy handed labelling.
 
Do you have something specifically in mind that is of special concern here specifically for trans people?

Unconscious patients with unknown identity/medical history is a known problem, and there medical professionals have a protocol for dealing with this. ER medical staff are no strangers to treating unfamiliar patients. The problem of the patient with unknown medical history is nothing new, and the existence of trans people doesn't strike me as much of change in this regard.

Sure... but there are different decision-making pathways that get explored based on the assumed sex of the patient.

If a patient goes in with severe abdominal pain, and presents as a man, refers to themselves as a man, and their records are marked as male... the doctor is unlikely to consider a uterine infection as a potential diagnosis.
 
Sure... but there are different decision-making pathways that get explored based on the assumed sex of the patient.

If a patient goes in with severe abdominal pain, and presents as a man, refers to themselves as a man, and their records are marked as male... the doctor is unlikely to consider a uterine infection as a potential diagnosis.

Collecting medical history is an extremely important element of health care for exactly this reason, because individual needs vary wildly. A trans person can simply divulge any medically relevant history through the ordinary course of evaluation. Are you under the assumption that trans people are going to conceal this obviously relevant piece of medical history for some reason?

I don't see a unique problem here.
 
It is a relatively recent development to consider sex and gender to mean different things.
On a geologic timescale lots of things are "relatively recent developments". On the timescale of societal change, feminist writings from the 1950s and 1960s are not at all that recent.

Except that (re)defining "woman" and "man" as social kinds based on differential social norms would foreseeably normalize and entrench the gendered norms themselves.
I don't see how that follows. The gendered norms are already normalised and entrenched, in many people's minds still highly linked to biological sex. Loosening the links between the gendered norms and biological sex would make them less entrenched and normalise non-conformity to them, IMHO.

It leaves open the treatment, but closes the book on equal treatment.
Don't see how.

Without differential treatment based on perceived sex and/or expressed gender, the new meanings evaporate.
Well, yeah, that is kind of the point. To make the concepts of "woman" and "man" disappear and replace them with equality regardless of sex.
 
I'm kind of with SuburbanTurkey on this one particular subtopic, this is a nothingburger.

Scenario 1. The person in question is a biological X living as a social Y (in whatever combination, it doesn't matter.) If the doctor performs an exam more involved then shaking your hand he's going to stumble across the information he/she needs.

Like I'm trying to imagine any possible scenario where a patient who presents as one of sex comes in complaining of a problem that is traditionally more associated with the other sex and the information isn't volunteered or noticed immediately upon and coming up blank.

Like the idea that they are opening someone up for a hysterectomy and some doctor is going to go "Heeeeey waitaminute this lady has testicles!" *Slaps his forehead* "Silly me, I forget to ask their gender" is rather... yeah. I laughed at the House episode where the teenage supermodel wound up having cancer on her testicles but the whole point of that show is ultra-rare medical scenarios.

Scenario 2: You have one of several rare actual intersex medical conditions. Again... same thing. A doctor is not going to stumble blindly through medical advice or procedure here and just not notice.

Yes I'm sure if you scour the internet you can find one or two cases of difficult transgender people playing "LOL but you didn't ask" with a doctor in some scenario somewhere, but not in any statistically meaningful number.
 
I can’t bring myself to be worried about the risks you see in that. Language has unexpected effects like that sometimes but for goodness sake. It’s the kind of thing that make you go ‘oh, I never noticed that!’ rather than ‘the ills of society can be traced to defining this word in such and such a way.’ Especially considering the concept we’re talking about here is slap bang in the middle of a contentious state of flux.

“It’s about how people treat you when you are percieved as a man or as a woman” does not define what that treatment is, it leaves that open. Pretty much the only actual prescriptive thing in the definition that I’ve seen anyone reallly want, is use of the corresponding pronoun.

This is kind of the core here. I ran across terms used by somebody the other day: sex eliminationist and gender eliminationist.

On the extreme of one side, the "sex eliminationist" view is that sex differences aren't important in society, and in order to have a more fair society and alleviate disadvantages for transgendered people, we should eliminate references to sex as a meaningful or important differentiator. Treatment of people should be based solely on how they present, and nothing else. Thus, the objective of "sex elimination" is to expand the concept of woman to include biological males, and expand the concept of man to include biological females.

On the extreme of the other side, the "gender eliminationist" view is that gender roles and expectations are artificial and constraining, and in order to have a more fair society and alleviate disadvantages for transgender people, we should eliminate references to gendered behavior and presentation. Treatment of people should be on their actions and behavior, but not in complete ignorance of the role sex plays in one's being. Thus, the objective of "gender elimination" is to expand the concept of male to include feminine behaviors and presentation, and to expand the concept of female to include masculine behaviors and presentation.

The ideal solution would hopefully be somewhere in the middle, but I do find myself more on the "gender eliminationist" side of things.

Partly, this is because by defining "woman" in terms of presentation, behavior, and gendered social norms, we reinforce those stereotypes... and those stereotypes are a material barrier to female equality. I don't want to reinforce the idiotic trope that "girls like pink things and lace and baby dolls and are quiet and well behaved and soft spoken". That stereotype hurts females.

It's also, however, because the "sex eliminationist" view doesn't leave much room for non-binary and gender non-conforming people. I think the "gender eliminationist" side of things provides a lot more bandwidth to support a spectrum of expressions and presentations, as well as providing a lot more breadth for effeminate gay men and butch lesbians.
 
No way. Zuby is a guy pretending he's trans to troll us and try to delegitimize us. He can go to hell.

I don't disagree with your assessment that he can go to hell. But I also don't think he's trolling you and people like you.

He's trolling the narrative that self-declaration alone is all that's needed, and illustrating one way in which it is detrimental to females - when it comes to participation in sports. Since you have previously agreed that sports should require a considerable amount of testosterone reduction in order for male-born people to compete against women, I would hope that you could understand the point that he is making.
 
Last edited:
Is pregnancy testing a common high priority emergency test for unresponsive patients in the ER?

Yes, it is. If you are female, you will ALWAYS be asked if you are or could be pregnant. And the vast majority of the time, they're going to do a pregnancy test even if you say no. If you are unconscious and unresponsive, they will do a pregnancy check as a matter of course. Sure, they might set a broken leg and staunch bleeding... but if you need to be sedated or anesthetized, or have major surgery done, they absolutely need to know if you're pregnant.

There are a LOT of medicines and procedures that can be deadly to a fetus, and often be damaging or fatal to the mother.
 
Once the crisis of stabilizing a patient is over, medical staff have to contemplate a wide variety of possible variables when diagnosing. Medical staff are aware of the existence of trans people this will be simply another of the many possible variables at play in diagnosing an unknown condition.

There will probably be errors, medicine is tricky. I don't see why trans status is requires such heavy handed labelling.

What heavy handed labelling? We're talking about an individual putting a note next to their ID indicating their (medically correct) sex. Because if a patient is unresponsive then staff will check the ID and make assumptions on the patient's sex as recorded on it. It's no different from verbally correcting your doctors' assumptions, just making sure the correction happens even if you're not able to do so verbally, because you simply don't want your doctors to operate under incorrect but relevant assumptions. How is it different from, say, someone who has allergies to some commonly used drugs to put this information on a note in their wallet for the same reasons?
 
I don't disagree with your assessment that he can go to hell. But I also don't think he's trolling you and people like you.

He's trolling the narrative that self-declaration alone is detrimental to females - especially when it comes to participation in sports. Since you have previously agreed that sports should require a considerable amount of testosterone reduction in order for male-born people to compete against women, I would hope that you could understand the point that he is making.

Yeah, of course you would be able to see things from his perspective. :mad:
 
Not in particular, but a diagnosis for the patient's condition can very well depend on assumptions regarding their sex, leading to incorrect treatment.

In an emergency context? I can't see how, but I'm not a medical expert. Please explain.

ETA: how is being trans something that is specifically worth worrying about enough to quickly ID? Medical alert bracelets are a thing, but usually only for certain conditions where such an extraordinary measure is justified (e.g. epilepsy)

Not during stabilization procedures themselves of course, it's not like, say, electrical cardioversion is performed differently on males and females. But for diagnosing the actual underlying condition? Yes, a differential diagnosis may very well rest on the patient's sex, as several diseases either occur only in one sex, occur significantly more frequently in one sex, or have different symptomology depending on sex.

Once the crisis of stabilizing a patient is over, medical staff have to contemplate a wide variety of possible variables when diagnosing. Medical staff are aware of the existence of trans people this will be simply another of the many possible variables at play in diagnosing an unknown condition.

There will probably be errors, medicine is tricky. I don't see why trans status is requires such heavy handed labelling.

I seriously can't help but laugh here. Male people, who are not doctors, opining on whether or not pregnancy testing is a routine emergency procedure with no actual knowledge of the issue.

Better to ask a doctor or even a female person, wouldn't you think?
 
What heavy handed labelling? We're talking about an individual putting a note next to their ID indicating their (medically correct) sex. Because if a patient is unresponsive then staff will check the ID and make assumptions on the patient's sex as recorded on it. It's no different from verbally correcting your doctors' assumptions, just making sure the correction happens even if you're not able to do so verbally, because you simply don't want your doctors to operate under incorrect but relevant assumptions. How is it different from, say, someone who has allergies to some commonly used drugs to put this information on a note in their wallet for the same reasons?

Medical labelling is usually reserved for fairly severe conditions. Do most diabetics even carry such marks? That strikes me as a much more likely source of a medical emergency, and much more likely to be useful information.

I trust you understand why members of historically marginalized and stigmatized groups might be resistant to carrying a special designation on their person declaring their "other-ness".
 
If you don't see a difference between him and an actual transperson...
I see a difference... but the problem is that I see that same difference with Seani and with J. Yaniv, and with Rachel McKinnon, and with Laurel Hubbard, and with Andraya Yearwood.

Which of those do you believe are actual transpersons, and which are not? Which of them would you be comfortable having in a shower with you? Which of them would you be okay sharing a prison cell with?
 
I seriously can't help but laugh here. Male people, who are not doctors, opining on whether or not pregnancy testing is a routine emergency procedure with no actual knowledge of the issue.

Better to ask a doctor or even a female person, wouldn't you think?

yes yes, us silly men intruding on your realm of expertise again.

The situation described was an emergency situation in which the patient was unconscious and could not communicate their medical history.

I assure you, pregnancy tests are way down the priority list for cis women that show up unresponsive to the ER. Docs are going to be too concerned with whether there's heartbeat and respiration to worry about such things.
 
Last edited:
It's already lost to transmen, who are often bigger, stronger, and male appearing.

The female segregated space only works as you describe if you assume trans people don't exist. The horse is out of the barn. Either transwomen will be in there, or transmen, and either seem to fail your ideal here.

I wish just once that you would express a little bit of sympathy for females.
 
I wish just once that you would express a little bit of sympathy for females.

Do you dispute my characterization? The genie is out of the bottle. Trans people aren't going away.

Do you want bearded, testosterone pumping trans-men in the locker room, or trans women? If biological sex is all that matters, the choice is clear.
 
The ideal solution would hopefully be somewhere in the middle,
picture.php


It's also, however, because the "sex eliminationist" view doesn't leave much room for non-binary and gender non-conforming people.
The "sex eliminationist" does not require a binary concept of gender.
 
I can see that from your perspective he's an *******, and I don't disagree with that assessment.

You seem to think that I'm not able to see things from the perspective of more than one person at a time.

Not everyone has christened themselves as defenders of an entire gender.
 
Medical labelling is usually reserved for fairly severe conditions. Do most diabetics even carry such marks? That strikes me as a much more likely source of a medical emergency, and much more likely to be useful information.

Many diabetics do - especially Type 1 diabetics. I carry information on my person and in my phone identifying that I'm epileptic. Partly because that might be the cause of why I'm in the ER to begin with, and also because certain medicines with interfere with my antiseizure drugs which could cause a seizure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom