Trump's tax returns

[eeyore1954]

Maybe don't brag about having not read the article and then sea lion "LOL is there evidence?"

I don't know what sea lioning is but I am not going to pay for the article so I was legitimately asking what type of real evidence there is of fraud. No one is under any obligation to provide it to me. But I do like arguing about taxes as it is something a know about.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I don't know what sea lioning is but I am not going to pay for the article so I was legitimately asking what type of real evidence there is of fraud. No one is under any obligation to provide it to me. But I do like arguing about taxes as it is something a know about.

1. You don't have to pay to read the article, just make a free account.
2. There's already a bajillion summaries of the article in other news sources linked in this thread.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Since the "who the debt is owed to" question wasn't answered in the NYT expose or already common public knowledge in some other way, I think it's safe to assume the answer is "nobody good."

Well at least a few hundred million is owed to Trump himself.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/09/donald-trump-has-never-explained-a-mysterious-50-million-chicago-unit-acquisition-loan-is-it-evidence-of-tax-fraud/

It is a way of avoiding the income from loan forgiveness

But really anyone who cared about Trump being a tax and general fraud had plenty of info from Trump University, there is nothing shocking in the new information. It is the kind of thing that people like about him.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I have not read the article but it seems from the headlines exactly what I would expect. Small taxes paid which is not necessarily unusual for investors that hold types of property that are good for capital appreciation.

It would not surprise me that many times he takes too aggressive of a position on his returns. Whether or not it reaches criminal is a bigger question. I am assuming all of this information released (if accurate) is/has been investigated by the IRS. He has been claiming large losses for a long time as seen by the previous release.

Funnily enough, when middle or low class citizens commit crimes, no one handwaves them by going "oh, I see some bike theft, drug pushing, and break-ins, that's not neccessarily unusual for low class citizens", or, "oh, I see driving under the influence, lots of car drivers do that".

This normalization of financial crime and tax evasion is part of why the US is the way it is. It allows the big crooks to get away with way too much.

 

[angrysoba]

I disagree.

Going after Trump and his cronies for all their transgressions will be vital to unite the US. You guys already made this mistake before after the civil war. You need to curb the tendencies shown by Trump and his ilk. Look at deNazification in Germany after WWII for examples.

No, that's not going to happen. This is not a civil war, so you can't put people on trial for war crimes. Sure, arrest his cronies who have been committing crimes, but that is happening now anyway.

No, he needs a pasting in the general election and to slink off in ignominy.

 

[Upchurch]

No, he needs a pasting in the general election and to slink off in ignominy.

That's doubtful. If he gets truly walloped in the election, he'll go back to his original plan for 2016: Claim that the system is massively rigged and start his own newstainment network, TrumpTV.

As a matter of fact, the worse he gets beat, the stronger his message of oppression will be.

 

[eeyore1954]

Funnily enough, when middle or low class citizens commit crimes, no one handwaves them by going "oh, I see some bike theft, drug pushing, and break-ins, that's not neccessarily unusual for low class citizens", or, "oh, I see driving under the influence, lots of car drivers do that".

This normalization of financial crime and tax evasion is part of why the US is the way it is. It allows the big crooks to get away with way too much.

If the IRS felt Trump was involved in tax fraud they would not hand wave it away.

 

[timhau]

I'm still not 100% sure about that first part.

His businesses in the US are showing a considerable loss but it doesn't necessarily mean they are failing. After all, according to studio accountants, the Harry Potter franchise lost a ton of money. There could be Trump businesses in tax efficient jurisdictions which are making a load of money.

There could also be an invisible dragon under my desk, about to devour me.

We have no evidence of Trump's businesses ever making a shedload of money (The Apprentice isn't his business). We do have evidence of them doing poorly enough to declare bankruptcy, occasionally even with adverse consequences to Trump himself. And we now also have evidence of him giving large personal guarantees to loans his businesses, which is something you just don't do unless you absolutely have to.

 

[Horatius]

As a matter of fact, the worse he gets beat, the stronger his message of oppression will be.

Yep. The bigger Biden's win is, the more they'll shout "Man, the voter fraud was even worse than we thought it was!"

 

[cosmicaug]

"Trump can do anything he wants until someone stops him" is well established precedent.

This.

 

[Segnosaur]

His businesses in the US are showing a considerable loss but it doesn't necessarily mean they are failing. After all, according to studio accountants, the Harry Potter franchise lost a ton of money. There could be Trump businesses in tax efficient jurisdictions which are making a load of money.

On the other hand.... Lets say its true. Lets say that we are only seeing evidence of the poorly performing businesses, and Stubby McBonespurs actually has hidden businesses that have more than enough income to cover his losses.

That isn't exactly a sign of a very good businessman. Usually, when you have a large organization with multiple branches, the company will cut out the poorly-performing ones to concentrate on the more profitable areas. (Unless of course they need to stay open for strategic reasons...) If Trump is actually keeping (for example) golf courses open despite them operating at a significant loss, that is the sign of a bad businessman.

 

[cosmicaug]

The information again shows Trump's believe that becoming successful is a Cargo Cult: if you want to be as rich as someone who can afford to buy and maintain airline or Golf Clubs, go ahead and buy them on credit, and then you, too, will get rich.

That's why it annoys that Trump is such a symbol of the evils of capitalism.

He's a horrible businessman. J.J. Astor or J.P Morgan or any of the great robber-barons of the gilded age wouldn't have let Trump pick their cigarette butts off the sidewalk.

I have to wonder if instead of symbolizing the evils of capitalism he shouldn't be seen as symbolizing The Power of Positive Thinking?

Not that he really really shows where that takes you. He is a very peculiar mix of that with malignant narcissism, sociopathy, massive inherited wealth & assorted circumstances that somehow spared him from the consequences of his incompetence & failures.

 

[cosmicaug]

My bet is that isn't going to happen. They should go to prison. But as much as I'd like to see that happen I would prefer to heal the country.

LOL!

 

[varwoche]

It's feasible that Trump is the worst businessman ever. If he's not the MVP, he's at least a perennial all star.

Armed with the knowledge we've acquired over the past 4 years, it's hardly a surprise that a spectacular imbecile like Trump would fail at business.

 

[cosmicaug]

*And to be 100% clear I agree that fixing everything Trump has done and preventing another Trump is priority #1, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't look like that's what we are doing.

First step in preventing another Trump, do not pardon Trump. It was a mistake to pardon Nixon & it would be a mistake to pardon Trump. Obviously, not pardoning Trump is just the start, though.

 

[Darat]

I disagree.

Going after Trump and his cronies for all their transgressions will be vital to unite the US. You guys already made this mistake before after the civil war. You need to curb the tendencies shown by Trump and his ilk. Look at deNazification in Germany after WWII for examples.

The USA needs to do it so a future president will know that whilst they can make a run around the “rules” there will be consequences.

 

[Darat]

It's feasible that Trump is the worst businessman ever. If he's not the MVP, he's at least a perennial all star.

Armed with the knowledge we've acquired over the past 4 years, it's hardly a surprise that a spectacular imbecile like Trump would fail at business.

Wasn’t there a calculation that if he hadn’t done anything with his inheritance other than invest it in the DOW he’d be much richer than he is today?

 

[Leftus]

I think it's one audit. Trump makes it seem like they are currently auditing him but from those tax records he's fighting over one year's taxes.

The Pres and VP have the honor of being audited every year.

I wouldn't be surprised if every return he has filed has been audited.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Regarding the country "healing."

The problem is how easy it is to get to the point where nothing can ever get better because "getting better" would mean one "side" isn't punished enough to appease the other side.

Has Trump committed crimes he should pay for? Absolutely. Have people associated with Trump committed crimes they should pay for? Absolutely.

But seriously raise your hand if you see the country in a better place in 4 years if the Democrats spend the next 4 years going further and

Punish Trump, absolutely without question. Punish his inner circle, yes. Punish the circle after that, maybe. Punish the circle after that, if you just have to. Punish the circle after that, maybe not.

Where the lines are all going to be drawn is question for another day.

My broad point is there is a difference between "Let Trump off because he's cult members are going to be childish twat donkeys about if we don't" and "We might have to move on as a country before everyone's ledger is wiped completely clean."

 

[Leftus]

IIRC it is considered de facto evidence of tax evasion to run a business year after year that loses money. Don’t at least many of Trump’s businesses, such as his golf chains, display this behavior?

No. It used to be that year over year losses were considered a hobby and not a business. That changed in 2019. If you are running it as a business and are trying to make a profit, then it can still be a business.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2019/06/14/horse-breeders-v-irs-even-the-losers-win/