Trump's tax returns

[Giordano]

I'm an author on numerous peer-reviewed papers, and have reviewed several. No reviewer has ever asked for original notes, data, or other proof that our source data was legitimate. At least in my field, that is not generally how peer review works. The concern is whether or not the work is sufficiently novel, meaningful, complete, and otherwise worthy of publication. This work certainly is.

Same here. This sort of detailed info is very, very rarely requested and never in the peer review process. Only after a strong suspicion of scientific fraud and it is not part of peer review but of a special fraud investigation by the suspect’s university.

As I mentioned before, even then there is typically no way to prove that what is claimed to be sample one in the gel in the publication was really sample one as loaded on the gel by the suspected investigator. Unless the fraudulent investigator trips up and manipulates the data after it is recorded somewhere or some statistical test reveals impossible statistics or claims to use a reagent that’s they never had access to. It has happened but very rarely.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The information again shows Trump's believe that becoming successful is a Cargo Cult: if you want to be as rich as someone who can afford to buy and maintain airline or Golf Clubs, go ahead and buy them on credit, and then you, too, will get rich.

 

[JoeMorgue]

That's why it annoys that Trump is such a symbol of the evils of capitalism.

He's a horrible businessman. J.J. Astor or J.P Morgan or any of the great robber-barons of the gilded age wouldn't have let Trump pick their cigarette butts off the sidewalk.

 

[Giordano]

Even the term “fake news” is an intriguing one: is the news info Itself fake or is it Trump’s interpretation that it is not news: everyone already knows he is a fake?

 

[The Greater Fool]

If Pence has any designs on becoming president, pardoning Trump & family would end his hopes right there.

 

[JoeMorgue]

It's also weird that Trump doesn't... well he doesn't act rich. Outside of golf and arm candy he doesn't do any of the stereotypical "rich guy" stuff. He dresses like a slob, he doesn't have a collection of exotic cars, he doesn't horde fine art, he eats McDonalds, he doesn't race yachts or breed race horses, he doesn't... like do anything.

There's just so little... person there. He seems to have no interests, no goals, no passions, not even "bad" ones.

Evil his evil is done with this goober, passionless, dead eyed stupor.

Sure he's greedy and craves power, but to no greater purpose. Even his vices are the most boring versions of them. He's never going to threaten blow up the moon with a laser. He's a Bond Villain perpetually stuck in the 1st act.

 

[acbytesla]

When this is all over Trump, his family and his associates are all going to be in prison.

they will fill a whole prison wing, give them the one on the west.

My bet is that isn't going to happen. They should go to prison. But as much as I'd like to see that happen I would prefer to heal the country.

I'm tired of a nation divided against itself. It's ok to disagree. In fact, that is not only expected, it is required for a healthy country. But this division can only bring the country down. If I was Biden, (If he wins) I would travel the country ...with a specific focus on rural America and start a real dialogue.

I would also focus on the systemic problems which allowed Trump to assault the checks and balances as he has done. This cannot happen again.

 

[Segnosaur]

I could see a potential problem with that.

I remember someone here mentioning that when you grant a pardon,

1) it has to be for specific offences (i.e. you can't grant a blanket "you are absolved of all crimes". So Trump's crimes would have to be enumerated. Not sure if Trump would want that to happen, or if Pence would be willing to grant a pardon in those circumstances. (Not saying that Pence has any integrity, but he may not want to make himself look bad should he decide to stay in federal politics.)

2) The pardon has to be accepted, and it is sometimes viewed as an admission of guilt. So while Trump might be clear of federal charges, he would be making it much easier for the states to prosecute him over similar crimes, since he would have admitted his guilt by accepting the pardon.

1). Not true. It's called a "blanket pardon":
Q: Can a president issue a blanket pardon to an individual for crimes that may have been committed in the past but have not yet been discovered?

A: Yes. That’s just what Gerald Ford did when he granted “a full, free, and absolute pardon” to Richard Nixon

Pence would just have to issue a blanket pardon for any crimes Trump may have committed in connection with his federal taxes.

The other poster had suggested that the pardon of Nixon may have been technically wrong (i.e. done in a way that made it invalid) but without anyone to prosecute, it didn't really matter.

Admittedly, I am going by memory, and basing things on another poster's claims, so yeah, good chance I am wrong on this.

However, I do think there may be some validity to my suggestion that Pence may not want to pardon Trump because it might cause him problems if he decides to stick around in federal politics. (Even if its a blanket pardon.) He would be the "man who let a criminal go free".... The MAGAchuds may not care about such things, both others might.)

2) Pardons have no formal, legal effect of declaring guilt.

From Wikipedia:
According to Associate Justice Joseph McKenna, writing the majority opinion in the U.S. Supreme Court case Burdick v. United States, a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."

We've been through this discussion before. Do you think Trump would give a rat's ass what anyone thought if it got him free and clear?

To be honest? I don't know.

Yes, Trump would want to get away free and clear. But he is also a narcissist with a huge ego, and may think "I don't need to admit guilt... I have stacked the courts so if I appeal I will eventually hit a judge that will find me innocent".

 

[Segnosaur]

My bet is that isn't going to happen. They should go to prison. But as much as I'd like to see that happen I would prefer to heal the country.

I guess the question is... would pardoning Trump actually do anything to "heal the country".

MAGAchuds are pretty dumb, and often quite obnoxious. Even if we have clear, uncontested evidence of Trump committing crimes, it is doubtful that they will alter their behavior. A pardon won't be seen as a magnanimous gesture by the Democrats, an opportunity for the Trump supporter to say "Ok, perhaps we were wrong in voting for Stubby McBonespurs". Instead, they will probably maintain their "Liberals are snowflakes" attitude, not expressing any remorse or acknowledgement that they were suckered in by a con man.

 

[BobTheCoward]

For those who feel like it, here's a handy summation of a bunch of the numbers.

To poke at one of the not so poked at numbers - $95,464

That's the total sum nine of Trump’s companies have paid as expenses to style Ivanka Trump’s hair.

I'm reminded a little of the conniption that certain groups had about AOC spending $300 on her hair out of her own pocket and fully expecting them to have not a bit to say about Ivanka's hair expenses.

Obviously the numbers on hair care is tax fraud....


...but trump was a TV star (reality tv is gross). It does appear covered to some extent. AOC, as a congressperson, has no good reason to look presentable.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I guess the question is... would pardoning Trump actually do anything to "heal the country".

Best guess? (And cards all down on the table face up we are in massive uncharted territory so this is all nailing Jello to the wall during an Earthquake....)

Pardoning no. It would be "better" (within the context of the question being asked) to just... like not go after him.

The best thing for the country right now is for Trump... to... go.... away. He can't be President anymore, that's obvious, but he can't hand over us like some Boogeyman that everything is a reaction to "Oh no we have to undo this because Trump, oh we have to do this so there's not another Trump*" either.

*And to be 100% clear I agree that fixing everything Trump has done and preventing another Trump is priority #1, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't look like that's what we are doing.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I could make my peace with letting Trump mostly off the hook if we get total transparency in return, from him and everyone around him.

 

[acbytesla]

I guess the question is... would pardoning Trump actually do anything to "heal the country".

Pardoning no. It would be "better" (within the context of the question being asked) to just... like not go after him. The best thing for the country right now is for Trump... to... go.... away. He can't be President anymore, that's obvious, but he can't hand over us like some Boogeyman that everything is a reaction to "Oh no we have to undo this because Trump, oh we have to do this so there's not another Trump*" either.

*And to be 100% clear I agree that fixing everything Trump has done and preventing another Trump is priority #1, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't look like that's what we are doing.

Yes to all of this Joe. If I was Biden, I'd make it very clear to Trump, that he would prevent any criminal prosecution of Trump. That is as long as Trump went quietly. But if Trump worked in any way to undermine the country, then everything is on the table.

 

[rdaneel]

I just tried to imagine how that might go:
Unnamed Foreign Leader: OK Mr Trump we will forgive your debts if you tell us the US Military secrets that you learned as President.

Trump: You didn't call me "Sir"...

UFL: Talk, pig.

T: I... er... it's hydrosonic.

UFL: What?

T: The weapon. They say it's hydrosonic, but in fact it's super-duper. Not many people know that...

UFL: We need to talk specifics here "sir"...

T: Oh, well it is specific. It's the most specific super-duper hydrosonic rocket ever...

UFL: So it's a rocket?

T: I never said rocket. It might be a rocket, it might not... you know my uncle was a rocket scientist? He made big rockets, the biggest. Of, course in those days no one even knew what hydrosonic was, but we do and we got 'em. They're the best...

UFL: OK Mr Trump, I guess we'll have to take the money...

T: What money?

Heh, this just reminded me of a line from "My Favorite Martian".

"Reading her mind is like trying to read a bowl of alphabet soup. All the letters are there, but they just don't spell anything."

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

Or Trump feels invincible (his narcissism) and believes Biden won't bring any criminal charges the same way Obama let Bush off for war crimes and the way the administration that followed Nixon made sure he wasn't prosecuted either (though that did involve a VP change so he could get a Presidential pardon after he resigned).

 

[acbytesla]

Or Trump feels invincible (his narcissism) and believes Biden won't bring any criminal charges the same way Obama let Bush off for war crimes and the way the administration that followed Nixon made sure he wasn't prosecuted either.

I know this sounds funny. But I would love that to happen. Doing that would amount to a blatant admission of guilt. Something the Trump supporters would have a problem denying.

And regardless of the immunity they gave themselves, it would allow, even encourage changes that would make it difficult for another Trump to take power.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I guess the question is... would pardoning Trump actually do anything to "heal the country"..

A better question is would letting Trump and his criminal enterprise off the hook do anything to "heal the country"?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

A better question is would letting Trump and his criminal enterprise off the hook do anything to "heal the country"?

there is no reason to assume it would.

Nothing that Biden could do would be right, because he is illegitimate according to Trump.

All that Biden can do is being transparent.

 

[Lurch]

Ron Akerman, the former Asst. Special Watergate Prosecutor and former Asst. US Attorney, SD of NY says it looks like both Trump and Ivanka engaged in classic tax fraud when Trump wrote off almost $750K in 'consulting fees' to her and she wrote them off, too. If he weren't president now, they'd both be indicted. Looks like both Daddy and First Daughter will be needing that pardon. Maybe they'll need an entire First Family pardon.

Nick Ackerman.

 

[Lurch]

For those who feel like it, here's a handy summation of a bunch of the numbers.

To poke at one of the not so poked at numbers - $95,464

That's the total sum nine of Trump’s companies have paid as expenses to style Ivanka Trump’s hair.

I'm reminded a little of the conniption that certain groups had about AOC spending $300 on her hair out of her own pocket and fully expecting them to have not a bit to say about Ivanka's hair expenses.

You call that mop "styled?" It just hangs there, all limp and straight. Someone's getting well paid for easy work.