Trump's tax returns

[Aridas]

My bet is that isn't going to happen. They should go to prison. But as much as I'd like to see that happen I would prefer to heal the country.

I'm tired of a nation divided against itself. It's ok to disagree. In fact, that is not only expected, it is required for a healthy country. But this division can only bring the country down. If I was Biden, (If he wins) I would travel the country ...with a specific focus on rural America and start a real dialogue.

I would also focus on the systemic problems which allowed Trump to assault the checks and balances as he has done. This cannot happen again.

In my opinion, pardoning Trump would do nothing to heal the country. Rather, it would likely do the opposite. In a direct and immediate sense, such would be enraging to much of the country and work to embolden the bad behavior of much of the rest, which itself will make the wounds worse. Much like walking up to a guy who is wailing on a hurt guy who is not fighting back and saying "I forgive you, there will be no consequences for this" while the guy just keeps attacking is not at all conducive to healing anything at all. In a less direct sense, it would be another big confirmation of how broken and in need of fixing/burning down the current state of affairs is, which, good or bad, is not something that lends itself to healing. To jump elsewhere - Republican propagandists will certainly and shamelessly try to pound on Democrats, the government, and anyone who they feel like disagreeing with at that moment in general no matter what the situation is, regardless, and work to push their personal and collective responsibilities off onto others. So even the attempted mollification of the right part would fairly certainly end up practically worthless.

For wounds to heal, it's best if they're properly treated and cared for. Just handing out a pardon would be more akin to covering up a festering wound without treatment.

there is no reason to assume it would.

Nothing that Biden could do would be right, because he is illegitimate according to Trump the Republican Party propagandists.

All that Biden can do is being transparent.

The Republican Party leadership effectively as a whole, for that matter.

 

[Lurch]

Glenn Kirschner, former prosecutor, in his "Justice Matters" YT videos is pretty passionate about indicting Trump and all the criming grifters. I agree. It would be obscene to just let such a set of ruin-causing scumbags walk away Scott free after victimizing the country. If for nothing else than the abject and amoral dereliction of duty that lead to at least 100,000 needless deaths among the citizenry. But really, there's a catalog of offenses to deal with.

When people knowingly and willfully, without remorse, commit crimes, Justice cries out for retribution. If a random mugger does nothing more than take your cash, most folk want him prosecuted. Why decline to prosecute people in high office when they rip off the country, these people to whom so very much is entrusted? To me it's just insane to hold street-level criminals to a far higher standard than even the President. It seems only fair that with great power, great responsibility, and commensurate punishment.

And there's a practical outcome with punishment. To sweep bad leaders' actions under the rug for fear of national disharmony only invites others of malign intent to seek high office, knowing they'll get away with their crimes. It's like a weak parent who gives into the toddler's tantrum; once the brat knows the trick, there's no stopping it.

 

[quadraginta]

When this is all over Trump, his family and his associates are all going to be in prison.

they will fill a whole prison wing, give them the one on the west.

My bet is that isn't going to happen. They should go to prison. But as much as I'd like to see that happen I would prefer to heal the country.

<snip>

Surgery can be healing as well. If there is gangrene then leaving it in the body isn't the best treatment.

Excising the Trump clan and sycophants from society would be very healing for the country. It would show that that sort of blatant, unabashed disregard for the laws (not to mention the ethics) of the country will not go unpunished.

I would also focus on the systemic problems which allowed Trump to assault the checks and balances as he has done. This cannot happen again.

Exactly. And criminal and civil punishment would have an excellent deterrent effect on those who might otherwise view the Trump presidency as a demonstration of how much sufficiently unprincipled people can get away with.

The most healing thing would be to show how little they could get away with.

The excuse to "heal the country" was what let Nixon walk away unscathed by any criminal statute, and even worse, by any significant investigation. It would not be unreasonable to argue that what we have seen during Trump's presidency is a result of letting such things go unpunished 'for the good of the country'.

 

[timhau]

I know this sounds funny. But I would love that to happen. Doing that would amount to a blatant admission of guilt. Something the Trump supporters would have a problem denying.

Really?

 

[Stacyhs]

If Pence has any designs on becoming president, pardoning Trump & family would end his hopes right there.

I don't think Pence has any chance of becoming POTUS in the first place. He doesn't have the same characteristics that drew people to Trump in the first place. He's dull. He's boring. He doesn't trigger the "libtards", etc.

 

[Norman Alexander]

there is no reason to assume it would.

Nothing that Biden could do would be right, because he is illegitimate according to Trump.

All that Biden can do is being transparent.

All Biden needs to do is let the appropriate criminal justice processes run their due course over Trump without fear or favour. If Trump is exonerated or convicted, Biden not step in or even, hopefully, comment.

Trump, of course, will bleat that he is being hard done by until the day he dies (all deities, please make that soon). Trump is a sore winner, we know already. So there will be no shutting him up whatever the outcomes.

The real problem will be Trump hangers-on, the Roger Stones and Rudi G's of the scene. And the Trump clan.

A suggestion I've seen floated in conversation is, in exchange for not pursuing, prosecuting or punishing any of them with US crimes, to instantly revoke their US citizenship and put them on the "illegals" deportation list. They will have to forfeit all their American real estate assets (the assumption is their bank funds are already offshore, and foreign-owned property is not within the US government ambit).

Then since they are now "illegals" without a visa, they will then be given whatever the requisite time is allowed to go find another country that will take them...I hear Russia is nice! Or Chyna... Or face deportation at the nearest border should they fail. And once they are gone, they will never be allowed re-enter the country. And they can take Roger Stone and Rudy G. with them.

 

[Stacyhs]

From Wikipedia:
According to Associate Justice Joseph McKenna, writing the majority opinion in the U.S. Supreme Court case Burdick v. United States, a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."

To be honest? I don't know.

Yes, Trump would want to get away free and clear. But he is also a narcissist with a huge ego, and may think "I don't need to admit guilt... I have stacked the courts so if I appeal I will eventually hit a judge that will find me innocent".

Accepting a pardon in no way is an admittance of guilt legally. Unless convicted in a court of law, they have legally committed no crime even though pardoned despite what Burdick vs US "imputes". Trump would not have to appeal anything.

 

[Cain]

If Pence has any designs on becoming president, pardoning Trump & family would end his hopes right there.

How does he win the Republican nomination if he hangs Trump out to dry? Also, a pardoning deal means he becomes president... if only for a day.

 

[Craig4]

I guess the question is... would pardoning Trump actually do anything to "heal the country".

MAGAchuds are pretty dumb, and often quite obnoxious. Even if we have clear, uncontested evidence of Trump committing crimes, it is doubtful that they will alter their behavior. A pardon won't be seen as a magnanimous gesture by the Democrats, an opportunity for the Trump supporter to say "Ok, perhaps we were wrong in voting for Stubby McBonespurs". Instead, they will probably maintain their "Liberals are snowflakes" attitude, not expressing any remorse or acknowledgement that they were suckered in by a con man.

If the rest of us commit the "crime" of voting Trump out of office and stealing the election, no amount of pardons will "forgive" that in the minds of the MAGA scum. It's better to bring prison and ruin down on him and everyone connected with him with culpability as a message to any of Trump's kind as to the dangers of using the presidency the way he did.

 

[Ziggurat]

I don't think Pence has any chance of becoming POTUS in the first place. He doesn't have the same characteristics that drew people to Trump in the first place. He's dull. He's boring. He doesn't trigger the "libtards", etc.

George HW was dull and boring compared to Reagan, but he still got elected. It probably depends on how things look in 2024. If the economy is roaring, he would probably have a good chance. If we're in a recession, then his odds would be low.

 

[jimbob]

From Twitter:

"Give him a break. He couldn’t pay taxes because he has loan spurs."

 

[Darat]

Peter Strzok notes that even after the President leaves office, his knowledge of the nation's deepest secrets doesn't evaporate. Trump owes as much as a half-billion dollars, some to foreign interests. What might he give up to a foreign power who offered relief?

Problem with that is the underlying assumptions that Trump has paid any attention to anything not directly related to himself and he would accurately remember what he was told. We know he can't even recall what he said at the start of his current sentence... unless it is man, woman, camera.....

 

[Darat]

Because distracting us into another subtopic is the only defense they have.



We know Trump drowned the man in the sparkling wine. The only thing left for his defenders to argue about is whether or not it was technically champagne.

And if it was champagne then you were lying when you said he drowned him in *wine*!

 

[Darat]

Here's my prediction if Trump loses the the election:

Trump pardons his entire family for all federal crimes sometime between the confirmation of Biden's win and Jan 19th, 2021.
On January 19th or just before, Trump resigns. Pence is sworn in. He pardons Trump for all federal crimes. Trump then leaves for Mar a Lago.

Or Pence turns around and says "Sir, I never promised you a pardon...."

 

[The Don]

Or Pence turns around and says "Sir, I never promised you a pardon...."

Given the size of President Trump's base and how vital it appears to be for the election prospects of Republicans across the board, I think that would be a tactical error.

 

[Darat]

IIRC it is considered de facto evidence of tax evasion to run a business year after year that loses money. Don’t at least many of Trump’s businesses, such as his golf chains, display this behavior?

Not really, if you think about the "disrupters" such as Amazon managed their disruption by losing billions and billions.

 

[Darat]

If Pence has any designs on becoming president, pardoning Trump & family would end his hopes right there.

Why? It would demonstrate that he is willing to protect those that favour him.

 

[timhau]

IIRC it is considered de facto evidence of tax evasion to run a business year after year that loses money. Don’t at least many of Trump’s businesses, such as his golf chains, display this behavior?

No, running a long-term loss is not evidence of tax evasion.

Not really, if you think about the "disrupters" such as Amazon managed their disruption by losing billions and billions.

The difference is that Amazon racked up those losses as a public company. Their financing during those years is a matter of public record. The finances of the Trump Organization mainly come out through criminal investigations or Eric's brain farts.

 

[uke2se]

Best guess? (And cards all down on the table face up we are in massive uncharted territory so this is all nailing Jello to the wall during an Earthquake....)

Pardoning no. It would be "better" (within the context of the question being asked) to just... like not go after him.

The best thing for the country right now is for Trump... to... go.... away. He can't be President anymore, that's obvious, but he can't hand over us like some Boogeyman that everything is a reaction to "Oh no we have to undo this because Trump, oh we have to do this so there's not another Trump*" either.

*And to be 100% clear I agree that fixing everything Trump has done and preventing another Trump is priority #1, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't look like that's what we are doing.

I disagree.

Going after Trump and his cronies for all their transgressions will be vital to unite the US. You guys already made this mistake before after the civil war. You need to curb the tendencies shown by Trump and his ilk. Look at deNazification in Germany after WWII for examples.

 

[Lothian]

Let me get this right. Trump is a crap businessman whose businesses are pretty much all failing. The only ones making money are a TV show and Presidency, both which presupposed him being a good businessman.

Hmmm.