Riots, looting, vandalism, etc.

[Mumbles]

Why have the liberal and Democratic Party leaders failed to address many or most of the sorts of concerns you presented (including the union and fraternal order barriers)?

Not enough time?

How much time do they need?

It's mostly because police unions and fraternities are presumed to speak for the average cop on the street (they often aren't, but whatever), and are in the habit of screaming bloody murder (often literally) when contradicted. And since they're often perceived as unions like other professions have (yet again, they are not, in that they often protect flatly dangerous conduct), and loudly resist even minor reforms (as I noted above), it's much easier to simply go along with them than to offer even minor restraints, never mind the strong reforms needed to establish trust with the communities they patrol.

"Time" is less important in most cities than "political will" and particularly the backing of white voters. Traditionally these voters tended to be overwhelmingly in favor of a more or less lawless, violent police force (this was typically called "law and order" in large part because it was falsely presumed to keep "those people" in line - this seems to be changing, however, although it's still a major and completely obvious part of Dolt 45's national reelection bid)

Also, was Chief Danielle Outlaw a fascist nazi Proud Boy or what (presumably the current Portland police are at least partially a product of her past leadership)?

Frankly, I wouldn't know.

Are there examples of policing in the USA or another country that would meet with the approval of BLM, antifa, and the far left?

Western Europe is probably far closer to ideal for all of the above - less murders, less bashing through doors, emphasis on rehabilitation, and the like. What's ideal will, of course, depend on the person.

It's interesting that Ted Wheeler is worried about Proud Boy violence after being chased from his home by (peaceful) arsonists.

Given that he's also seen right-wing gangs driving through the city blasting bear mace and paintball guns at protestors, and random people, that even violent protestors were in large part a response to Dolt 45's goons kidnapping people, *and* that bigoted gangs like the Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, and the like are well-known for encouraging violence (Antifa is not a group, and BLM is avowedly nonviolent), I don't see why it would be surprising in the slightest.

 

[portlandatheist]

Jouranlists had their head's kicked by drunk fascists but it was a mostly peaceful protest.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Jouranlists had their head's kicked by drunk fascists but it was a mostly peaceful protest.

Proud Boys claiming victory like they always do, but it's hard to see this as anything but a defeat.

Turnout to the fascist rally was low and counter demonstrations had many times their numbers. Cops prevented them from doing anything more than hanging out, and it sounds like they intend to arrest this guy that attacked a black journalist, though only after the fact.

The proud boys fled the city after doing little more than drinking in an open field. Must have been a big disappointment for those that traveled from across the country.

Meanwhile there's another treasure trove of photo and video for antifascists to go through and dox more closet fascists.

Some victory. So much for avenging Jay.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Meanwhile, in Yorba Linda, Car rips through crowd at Black Lives Matter protest and counter-protest in Yorba Linda; driver arrested

Just another peaceful protest by low IQ racists and their allies.

 

[Emily's Cat]

In fairness, you didn’t think a cop running over someone’s head with a bicycle was anything more than rude, so you might not be the best judge.

That's not quite my position.

The cop running a light-weight bike over the helmetted head of a person who threw themselves on the ground in front of them is rude. It might technically constitute a minor assault, in the same way that if a person is blocking my way into a building and I push past them and make physical contact with them, they can consider it a minor assault as well.

But it's hardly the hyperbolic vicious violent attack on an innocent victim that it was made out to be.

I get really tired of the forced narrative and rhetorical framing that distorts reality and reason. There's enough wrong in the world - and in the US judicial system in particular - without needing to invent ridiculously warped versions of events. In my opinion, the constant distortion of facts to fit into a chicken-little emotion-tugging portrayal doesn't lend support to addressing the problem; it merely convinces the world that everyone is crying wolf.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Luckily, there are multiple sources that confirm what the Trump administration can no longer deny.

Non sequitur. The Trump administration doesn't deny it. The Trump administration said it.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

He’s probably aware of the crime data that demonstrates how much more violent right wingers are.

Do you have a link to this crime data? btw, I shouldn't have to tell you this but...nothing from the SPLC or the ADL. We only use credible sources around here.

 

[johnny karate]

Do you have a link to this crime data? btw, I shouldn't have to tell you this but...nothing from the SPLC or the ADL. We only use credible sources around here.

I think you might have this forum confused with Stormfront.

Check your open tabs and make sure that you’re in the right one.

 

[johnny karate]

That's not quite my position.

The cop running a light-weight bike over the helmetted head of a person who threw themselves on the ground in front of them is rude. It might technically constitute a minor assault, in the same way that if a person is blocking my way into a building and I push past them and make physical contact with them, they can consider it a minor assault as well.

I’m glad you were finally able to admit that it was assault.

But it's hardly the hyperbolic vicious violent attack on an innocent victim that it was made out to be.

I get really tired of the forced narrative and rhetorical framing that distorts reality and reason. There's enough wrong in the world - and in the US judicial system in particular - without needing to invent ridiculously warped versions of events. In my opinion, the constant distortion of facts to fit into a chicken-little emotion-tugging portrayal doesn't lend support to addressing the problem; it merely convinces the world that everyone is crying wolf.

Cool.

Here’s you totally not inventing a ridiculously warped version of events to fit into a chicken-little emotion-tugging portrayal:

I'm talking about the development of a social norm here, not some external authority.

Right now, the social norm being created and put in place is that if a person says something that "society" deems to be "bad", then "society" is right to persecute that person, and people associated with them, as well as anyone who opposes their persecution. The norm that is bubbling up is that "society" can, by force, deny livelihood to anyone that "society" decides isn't good enough. "Society" can issue death threats to individuals, their families, and their employers in order to evict the transgressor from that society.

That is absolutely something I think needs to be discussed. Because right now, leaving it up to each individual to try to decide whether or not they should say anything is kowtowing to a mob. And there's absolutely no reason to think that this mob will stop where you or I think they should stop. There's no guarantee that this mob will not decide that something you and I hold dear is now verbotten.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What a coincidence, the man that was filmed stomping a black journalist was earlier photographed getting friendly with the cops.

Should make the police finding him easier, since they are such good pals, right?

https://twitter.com/sun_everything/status/1309969180024664064

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Deleted, not really on topic for this thread.

 

[Brainster]

This is probably not going to be popular with anybody here, but I can't help wondering if both Michael Reinohl and Kyle Rittenhouse did us all a big honking favor.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

I think you might have this forum confused with Stormfront.

Check your open tabs and make sure that you’re in the right one.

I thought you might actually have a source of information substantiating your statement that right wingers are more violent than the left.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What a coincidence, the man that was filmed stomping a black journalist was earlier photographed getting friendly with the cops.

Should make the police finding him easier, since they are such good pals, right?

https://twitter.com/sun_everything/status/1309969180024664064

Online antifa types have found this guys name and employer. Let's just wait to see if the cops actually meant it when they say they want to arrest this guy.

Samson Steele, of PNW Environmental out of Oregon.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Proud boys hit with another lawsuit for their violence:

https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2020/09/25/in-million-dollar-lawsuit-portlanders-say-proud-boys-injured-them-with-paintballs-and-bear-mace/

In the lawsuit, filed today in Multnomah County Circuit Court, the four plaintiffs say Alan Swinney, Corey Wyatt and David Willis fired paintballs at them at close range and sprayed them with bear mace.

The plaintiffs—who include Albert Lee, a former candidate for U.S. Congress; Melissa Lewis, a photojournalist; and two protesters—say they went to observe "flag wave" rallies in downtown Portland on Aug. 15 and 22, only to find Swinney and his allies using weapons indiscriminately on the crowd that confronted them.

If the Unite the Right lawsuit is any guide, a ruthless civil suit will do the job of tearing apart this criminal conspiracy. The cops should be using their authority to do this, but they seem disinclined to police the right. Fortunately this isn't the only avenue for justice.

Money damages aside, discovery into the Proud Boys private message channels, where they are undoubtedly discussing plans for interstate violence, will be very interesting.

Unfortunately, these kinds of suits take time. The UTR lawsuit is still grinding the organizers into a bloody pulp, but only after years of focused legal battles. This lawsuit may ruin these fascists lives, but not in the immediate future.

 

[RedStapler]

I thought you might actually have a source of information substantiating your statement that right wingers are more violent than the left.

Nobody is obliged to pull the hands off from your ears and eyes.

The oldest trick in the rightwingers playbook: "Demand that people deliver every piece of evidence to you personally. If they do, just claim that you still don't believe because evidence coming from leftists is always forged and worthless"

 

[ponderingturtle]

Depends on how the Oregon state PD behaves, I suppose. Forgive me for finding this...less than reassuring, but that state does have a history after all.

Hey they legalized blacks in the state quite some time ago.

 

[johnny karate]

I thought you might actually have a source of information substantiating your statement that right wingers are more violent than the left.

You’re not someone to whom I consider it worthwhile to prove anything. Believe or don’t believe whatever you want. I don’t care.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Hey they legalized blacks in the state quite some time ago.

more like decriminalized.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

Nobody is obliged to pull the hands off from your ears and eyes.

The oldest trick in the rightwingers playbook: "Demand that people deliver every piece of evidence to you personally. If they do, just claim that you still don't believe because evidence coming from leftists is always forged and worthless"

You’re not someone to whom I consider it worthwhile to prove anything. Believe or don’t believe whatever you want. I don’t care.

When you guys were in college, did the citations in your term papers look like:

1. I can pull facts out of my ass and if you don't like them I don't care. It's not my job to do your homework for you.
2. Ibid
3. Ibid
4. Ibid
5. Ibid