Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[LondonJohn]

You're not even actually reading this thread, are you? That's not something any of us have suggested. Rolfe might have the most extreme position (which isn't even all that extreme) and even she hasn't suggested such a thing.

Even if people do think it's a mental illness, that doesn't mean it can be cured or that people grow out of it. Bi-polar disorder is a mental illness - it can be treated and managed, but it doesn't go away. Schizophrenia is a mental illness - it can be treated and managed, but it doesn't go away. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is useful for some people with some conditions, but it's about managing the condition, and altering one's reactions to the condition's effects. I get the impression that you don't really know much about mental illness overall, and you're falling foul of the same assumption of stigma that is such a problem for treatment and support already.

Uhhhhhhhh yes it IS what some here have suggested (some explicitly, others implicitly).

Perhaps, just maybe, it's you who ought be subjected to a patronising suggestion to "actually read this thread"......

 

[JoeMorgue]

Playing the "You aren't really X until you lived in a world where you are treated badly for being an X" card strikes me as less than useful.

Along with the continue attempts to draw the lines mostly between "Straight cis-males and everyone else" I say we just cut to the chase and make the two genders "Privileged" and "Unprivileged" and be done with it.

It's either that or we go back to debating whether or not a perfectly spherical person in a frictionless vacuum over an infinite plane of uniform gravity can be the wrong gender or not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

What is a man that performs the stereotypical social roles of a woman, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a woman, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical woman, but is very much convinced that he is a man?

I'd say that he is a man,...

Question: In your first sentence, are you saying that this person is a man because they internally feel like a man? Or are you saying they are a man because they are an adult human male?

If it's the first, I think your illustration might need some tweaking, because you're saying that 'a person who feels like a man' is 'a person that feels like a man'.

 

[Boudicca90]

ETA: Hell look at it this way. Do people who want to be the other gender exist? Or is everyone their own preferred gender? Or do have to split the hair between "want" and "prefer" to square the circle this time?

This is no snark, this is not sarcasm, this is not a trap or a "gotcha."

What's the difference between having a preferred gender and wanting to be the other gender?

Gender is ultimately a spectrum from male to female or masculine to feminine.

There are those of us like me who feel we are on the other end of the spectrum from where we were placed and want to get to the other side as much as possible. We want to be the other gender because we feel we are, and so we take steps to achieve that.

There are also non-binary or genderqueer people who fit somewhere in between on the spectrum and they more often have a "preferred" gender based on where they see themselves. It's less concrete and definite and can change over time.

I personally don't like when i'm in a meeting and they say to announce our preferred gender when we introduce ourselves, because I don't see it as a preference. But it's good for those that do.

Note that it is just my understanding of non-binary people, i'm not quite as knowledgeable about them.

 

[Aber]

(I mean, you can try writing to the ONS, or the UK Government, or the panels of medical, legal and sociological experts who inform the policy-making of the UK Government..... and tell them that the "Gender/Sex" distinction is just begging the question, and seems a lot like trying to rebrand "Gender Roles", and that the Gender/Sex distinction is just tautological proving of the distinction it wants to exist by defining it as different.

It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable.

 

[Boudicca90]

Hey - welcome to TERFhood, my friend!

I don't consider him a TERF for having a different opinion on this (can men technically even be TERFs?), since he hasn't denied my female identity at any point.

He's an ally, but we do have definite disagreements on this.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes it is. These are all positions and opinion Rolfe and a few others have put forward, that we are all delusional men trying to steal women's spaces and rights. She seems to be against any gender affirming therapy or treatments and think we should all just live with the gender that was chosen for us. She also seems to think there is some grand conspiracy in the medical and psychiatric fields that is driving all of this.

I would definitely call all that extreme, but she is a perfect example of TERF ideology and propaganda.

I actually find it fascinating how observations can be skewed by a bias which is related to held beliefs and belief systems. Thus can things be "seen" which are not really there, and/or things can be "not seen" which are really there.

I believe we're seeing the same sort of thing here in respect of the definitions and delineations of sex versus gender. And I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope of this debate heading anywhere but more chaotic, more ignorant, and more entrenched. On one "side" of the debate, that is.

 

[Olmstead]

Question: In your first sentence, are you saying that this person is a man because they internally feel like a man? Or are you saying they are a man because they are an adult human male?

If it's the first, I think your illustration might need some tweaking, because you're saying that 'a person who feels like a man' is 'a person that feels like a man'.

Oh, right. I slipped and forgot that I have to be extra clear in these discussions:

"What is a biological male that performs the stereotypical social roles of a woman, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a woman, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical woman, but is very much convinced that he is a man?

I'd say that he is a man."

 

[Emily's Cat]

I could cut and paste the entirety of the ONS article, because it explains in depth exactly the same understanding that I have, and I suspect it may be what you're looking for from me...... but that would fall foul of the forum rules on excessive pasting. And you're clearly searching for a detailed explanation; that article provides a whole lot of detail, and (as I say) it chimes exactly with my own thoughts and beliefs.

So all I can suggest is that you click on this link and read all of its contents, because that's my answer:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Actually, it doesn't provide an answer. It talks in circles. It doesn't provide descriptions at all. It just substitutes in "masculine" and "feminine" without any descriptions or definitions, as if that somehow makes it better.

I'm going out on a limb here, and assuming that you, personally, have an abstract mental concept of what attributes, behaviors, and roles are incorporated into the category of "Man/Masculine/Male" and what is incorporated into the category of "Woman/Feminine/Female". So why not just go ahead and share some of your views and beliefs with us instead of tap-dancing around?

Why is it such a difficult thing for you to do?

 

[Boudicca90]

Boudicca90, do you think you would feel a mis-match between your body and you internal feelings in this scenario without cis women? I guess the issue is whether the mis-match *depends* in some fashion on how gender is defined, or whether the mis-match would occur even if society didn't even define what a woman is (in the scenario in which there are no women).

Definately. I wouldn't know how to define it or explain it, but I know I would still feel that mis-match between my body and mind.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hey - welcome to TERFhood, my friend!

I mean, you know that's a nonsensical (and maybe deliberately inflammatory?) thing to write, right?

(You appear to be conflating - whether wilfully or ignorantly - a) a disquiet over the nature and severity of things like "conversion therapy" or medical/surgical interventions which are applied to people as young adolescents, with b) a blanket, militant brand of explicit transphobia. Oh and not to mention that, IIRC, the TERF acronym generally only applies to women.....)

 

[Minoosh]

I have a partial solution for single-gender facilities that no one will like. (Not a solution to "who's a woman," just one narrow issue). It involves observing privacy etiquette when possible. I realize in some cultures it doesn't matter to anyone, but I'm not talking about them.

I would post notices in locker rooms saying this is a single-gender facility and asking people to respect communal modesty. Also include a way to reach staff members if stakeholders feel they must report problem behaviors. I wouldn't necessarily list all the behaviors, but examples would be available in writing and they would be based on what people do, not who they are.

In itself, this process may feel like a violation of some people's rights, but it does accommodate a variety of concerns. Everyone gives something up; no one gets to have everything they want. Facilities managers would need training in how to manage complaints, or perhaps this would be outsourced to specialists in mediating gender issues. Behavior accepted by everyone would not generate complaints.

A lot of people are shy and IMO it's just good manners not to either gawk or gratuitously flash body parts. My experience with group nudity is: As a young girl I had sex-separated PE with open, communal showers. I wasn't crazy about it, but there might have been value in seeing a variety of bodies. As an adult, most women I saw in locker rooms seemed to have a middling acceptance of partial nudity. If I'd been swimming, I would want to rinse my suit off as well, and the showers had partitioned stalls with hooks or benches. I'd rinse off, then wrap a towel around my waist or my body and finish the drying-off, hair-styling or makeup-applying routine at the sinks or by a locker, without either obsessively covering my body or going out of my way to flaunt it. I wouldn't, for example, set up camp in a middle bench and ostentatiously air-dry my private parts. I might use the locker door to create a visual privacy zone.

That may sound unreasonably prudish to some people, but even when traveling with a female friend, we both seem to observe such etiquette. Now I live with my mom, and we both seem to follow the "rules." But I had an aunt and cousin who routinely took off their tops and bras when home alone (with each other, I mean). I much prefer not to be fully dressed when I live alone. Partly to keep pet hair off my clothes

 

[Emily's Cat]

Stick to caring for animals, because it obvious you have no idea what is involved in the care for gender non-conforming kids.

Hint: it is not a pathway that attempts (with no hope of meaningful success) to turn them into a facsimile of a girl, because they wanted to dress up in a sparkly princess costume when they were three with no realistic possibility of reconsidering. That's not how it works. That is not how any of this works.

Are you quite sure? Currently, at least in the UK, the only approved approach for treating children that present with gender discomfort is to affirm their gender preference, and to help them realize that preference. There's no allowance for questioning or challenging their stated preference, or for engaging in any therapy to help them be more comfortable in their existing physical sex - it's seen as being conversion therapy.

 

[LondonJohn]

Actually, it doesn't provide an answer. It talks in circles. It doesn't provide descriptions at all. It just substitutes in "masculine" and "feminine" without any descriptions or definitions, as if that somehow makes it better.

I'm going out on a limb here, and assuming that you, personally, have an abstract mental concept of what attributes, behaviors, and roles are incorporated into the category of "Man/Masculine/Male" and what is incorporated into the category of "Woman/Feminine/Female". So why not just go ahead and share some of your views and beliefs with us instead of tap-dancing around?

Why is it such a difficult thing for you to do?

I literally have no idea what you demand of me.

I have told you, countless times, how I define and delineate all the relevant terms, as they apply to the sphere of gender identity issues.

I have pointed, for supporting and expounding material, to that ONS document. I have pointed to the fact that these terms and their delineations seem to be sufficient to satisfy England & Wales law - and I don't recall anyone finding any loopholes, ambiguities, contradictions, or even difficulties, within the law yet.

So I can only conclude that these demands have malign motives. And I really can't be bothered. I know what I believe. And I know that I've explained what I believe within these pages. I'm out - enjoy!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yet it obviously appears to be rocket science (to some) to figure out how/why all of these examples:

- trans women
- women with severe limb deformities from Thalidamide effects
- women with abnormally large clitorises and excessive body hair
- women with large tumours in their abdomens

clearly have the potential to cause distress/offence/shock when they undress in a women's changing room, and yet (apparently), from among all those examples, only one category (in their opinion):

- trans women

somehow lose the right to use the women's changing rooms.


I see.....

(I don't see)

Alright, let's take your premise here.

What logic would you apply to say that a natal man would NOT be allowed into the ladies changing room?

If a transwoman who is physically intact with male genitalia is allowed in the women's changing rooms, why would it be acceptable to exclude a cisman with intact male genitalia?

 

[Aber]

I mean, you know that's a nonsensical (and maybe deliberately inflammatory?) thing to write, right?

(You appear to be conflating - whether wilfully or ignorantly - a) a disquiet over the nature and severity of things like "conversion therapy" or medical/surgical interventions which are applied to people as young adolescents, with b) a blanket, militant brand of explicit transphobia. Oh and not to mention that, IIRC, the TERF acronym generally only applies to women.....)

Nope

Denying Self-ID is often enough to get you labelled as a TERF.

EDIT:
And to reiterate:

It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure if even the most militant trans-activists are arguing that trans women should be allowed to compete at parity in women's sporting events. But if they are arguing that, then (IMO) they are totally wrong.

You really should take my advice and skim through this thread to get a feel for what the discussions have been. Several people have genuinely argued that transwomen should be able to compete in women's sports without any required transitioning or hormone therapy. Many of them also argued for simply desegregating sports altogether, and may the best player (read: man) win.

Boudicca doesn't hold this view.

So once again, welcome to the TERF club, John.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Without gendered social roles, being transgender is meaningless, at least as far as society is concerned.

This is a big part of what most natal women want.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't consider him a TERF for having a different opinion on this (can men technically even be TERFs?), since he hasn't denied my female identity at any point.

He's an ally, but we do have definite disagreements on this.

And I'm happy to listen to reasonable argument as to why, on balance, it's likely to do more good than (potential) harm to offer affirmative therapies and interventions at a young-adolescent age. As I say, I'm instinctively inclined to think that - even though I recognise fully that an unwillingness to go down the "conversion therapy" route at these ages might result in increased anguish and distress for the person concerned - this may be more than offset by the risk of taking vulnerable and confused adolescents down roads from which it is difficult or impossible to reverse.

But I'm open-minded.

On the other hand, I'm not so keen on hectoring and debate-by-demand, which is why I won't be engaging with those parties any longer

 

[LondonJohn]

Nope

Denying Self-ID is often enough to get you labelled as a TERF.

EDIT:
And to reiterate:

It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable.

Not what it says in this (current) official document.....

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/envi...isthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21