Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Paul2]

I get what you're saying... but I still end up back at wondering how any person can intuitively, automatically, and subconsciously feel like something that they have never been, never experienced, and cannot explain?

Lemme get back to you on this in a little bit.

 

[Boudicca90]

Got it in one. Men who identify as trans are trying to conform to their own fantasy of "woman". It bears virtually no relationship to the actuality of being a woman.

Or maybe Boudicca will learn to cope and live in a way that makes Boudicca comfortable without either denying physical reality or demanding to be accepted into the sex class Boudicca doesn't belong to.

You're right to be scared. It won't last of course. We've seen delusional medical fads before and people look back on them with embarrassment and denial. This one is pretty extreme but it won't last in the long term and probably not even in the medium term.

It's actually our sex-segregated spaces and provisions that Boudicca wants to invade and occupy as of right.

No matter what happens now, Jazz Jennings has lost his childhood and adolescence. I don't know how it's possible for anyone to mature into a well-balanced, happy adult life after a growing-up experience like that, even if he's happy with never knowing what an orgasm is and most people who want to date him probably doing it out of curiosity or the desire to be associated with notoriety.

Even Rolfe hasn't suggested that all transgender people will grow out of it or get over it. Even she has recognized that some people will not. She seemed fine with full transsexuals.

Really? So I just pulled all that out of my ass?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited breach of rule 12

 

[TomB]

I mean, you know that's a nonsensical (and maybe deliberately inflammatory?) thing to write, right?

(You appear to be conflating - whether wilfully or ignorantly - a) a disquiet over the nature and severity of things like "conversion therapy" or medical/surgical interventions which are applied to people as young adolescents, with b) a blanket, militant brand of explicit transphobia. Oh and not to mention that, IIRC, the TERF acronym generally only applies to women.....)

I’ve seen instances where certain trans-women have been labeled as TERFs. Not here,but it’s happened.

 

[Boudicca90]

You say she should have the sense to cover herself, and I agree. Your view of "ought" is one that I personally find acceptable. From a legal perspective, however, the result was that the large number of girls who used that changing room were told that if they were made uncomfortable by the transwoman's lack of respect for others, then it was incumbent upon them to find somewhere else to change. Do you think that is a fair and reasonable outcome?

Yes, with the caveat that the trans woman cover herself up. And yes, I know it would probably be hard to enforce that legally, so it should be made clear to her.

That was the issue, that she was disrespecting the other women by showing her penis. But she also has the right to be in there.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Gender is ultimately a spectrum from male to female or masculine to feminine.

There are those of us like me who feel we are on the other end of the spectrum from where we were placed and want to get to the other side as much as possible. We want to be the other gender because we feel we are, and so we take steps to achieve that.

There are also non-binary or genderqueer people who fit somewhere in between on the spectrum and they more often have a "preferred" gender based on where they see themselves. It's less concrete and definite and can change over time.

I personally don't like when i'm in a meeting and they say to announce our preferred gender when we introduce ourselves, because I don't see it as a preference. But it's good for those that do.

Note that it is just my understanding of non-binary people, i'm not quite as knowledgeable about them.

Okay, I can work with gender being a spectrum between masculine and feminine.

Does that imply that a butch lesbian is actually a transman? Or that a particularly effeminate male is a transwoman?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't consider him a TERF for having a different opinion on this (can men technically even be TERFs?), since he hasn't denied my female identity at any point.

He's an ally, but we do have definite disagreements on this.

I don't deny your identity as a woman. I just have disagreements about what that identity entitles you to.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Oh, right. I slipped and forgot that I have to be extra clear in these discussions:

"What is a biological male that performs the stereotypical social roles of a woman, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a woman, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical woman, but is very much convinced that he is a man?

I'd say that he is a man."

Alright. Now two follow on scenarios...

What is a biological male that performs the stereotypical social roles of a woman, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a woman, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical woman, but is very much convinced that he is a woman?

What is a biological male that performs the stereotypical social roles of a man, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a man, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical man, but is very much convinced that he is a woman?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Definately. I wouldn't know how to define it or explain it, but I know I would still feel that mis-match between my body and mind.

I genuinely don't know if this is helpful or not, but most people feel at least some mismatch between their internal construct of themselves and their bodies. Not perhaps as extreme as you've experienced, but it's very common for at least some disconnect to exist.

Actually, most people have a mismatch between the internal constructs they hold of other people and the reality of those other people.

Brains are frequently big fat liars. You shouldn't always trust your brain. My brain is convinced that I'm taller than I actually am, and is also very certain that I dislike anything lemon flavored. It's an internal argument every time I'm offered a lemon bar. My brain says "no yuck", then my conscious logic self says "shut up brain, every time you have a lemon bar your mouth likes it a lot, you're full of crap, go back to your corner."

 

[Boudicca90]

So was it a particular part of your body that was involved in the mis-match, or was it not discrete and more generalized?

For me it has more to do with other secondary sex characteristics I think.

My dysphoria really increased after puberty, as I didn't want a deep voice, or excessive body and facial hair, or the lack of breast development, or all the testosterone that caused all those changes in my body and mood. I still have issues with some of those things, and covid isn't making things easier for me as my electrolysis and surgeries keep getting delayed.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I mean, you know that's a nonsensical (and maybe deliberately inflammatory?) thing to write, right?

(You appear to be conflating - whether wilfully or ignorantly - a) a disquiet over the nature and severity of things like "conversion therapy" or medical/surgical interventions which are applied to people as young adolescents, with b) a blanket, militant brand of explicit transphobia. Oh and not to mention that, IIRC, the TERF acronym generally only applies to women.....)

No, it doesn't only apply to women. And it's been applied repeatedly in this thread to people who do not hold militant and explicit transphobic views at all.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I have a partial solution for single-gender facilities that no one will like. (Not a solution to "who's a woman," just one narrow issue). It involves observing privacy etiquette when possible. I realize in some cultures it doesn't matter to anyone, but I'm not talking about them.

I would post notices in locker rooms saying this is a single-gender facility and asking people to respect communal modesty. Also include a way to reach staff members if stakeholders feel they must report problem behaviors. I wouldn't necessarily list all the behaviors, but examples would be available in writing and they would be based on what people do, not who they are.

In itself, this process may feel like a violation of some people's rights, but it does accommodate a variety of concerns. Everyone gives something up; no one gets to have everything they want. Facilities managers would need training in how to manage complaints, or perhaps this would be outsourced to specialists in mediating gender issues. Behavior accepted by everyone would not generate complaints.

A lot of people are shy and IMO it's just good manners not to either gawk or gratuitously flash body parts. My experience with group nudity is: As a young girl I had sex-separated PE with open, communal showers. I wasn't crazy about it, but there might have been value in seeing a variety of bodies. As an adult, most women I saw in locker rooms seemed to have a middling acceptance of partial nudity. If I'd been swimming, I would want to rinse my suit off as well, and the showers had partitioned stalls with hooks or benches. I'd rinse off, then wrap a towel around my waist or my body and finish the drying-off, hair-styling or makeup-applying routine at the sinks or by a locker, without either obsessively covering my body or going out of my way to flaunt it. I wouldn't, for example, set up camp in a middle bench and ostentatiously air-dry my private parts. I might use the locker door to create a visual privacy zone.

That may sound unreasonably prudish to some people, but even when traveling with a female friend, we both seem to observe such etiquette. Now I live with my mom, and we both seem to follow the "rules." But I had an aunt and cousin who routinely took off their tops and bras when home alone (with each other, I mean). I much prefer not to be fully dressed when I live alone. Partly to keep pet hair off my clothes

I think that's a perfectly reasonable approach. Not sure how to apply it though, and I'm not sure how it would stand up to legal challenge.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I for one totally support this! I don't like being naked around other people, especially strangers, of any gender. I want there to be more private changing rooms and less open communal spaces because of that, and I would still feel that way if I wasn't trans.

I remember having to change for gym class in middle school and wearing my gym clothes under my regular ones so I wouldn't have to even show my underwear. I would have no problem with more strictly enforced etiquette in certain situations.

Like I said, I think this is a great idea.

The challenge with this is not people like you. You've already shown yourself to be a considerate person. But there are other people out there who identify as trans and who are NOT as considerate as you.

How do you convince them to adopt this approach?

 

[theprestige]

Really? So I just pulled all that out of my ass?

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to comply with previously moderated content

Yes, you did. None of your citations falsify E's C's claim.

 

[Robin]

Let me ask you this:

What makes a horse a horse? What is the essence of a horse's "horsiness"?

And what makes a cow a cow? How is a cow different from a horse?

(And consider these questions without reference to genomes, but rather base them on observed behaviours and attributes)

Remember, we were discussing why I find the definitions of gender used by the UK government don't help me to find out what "gender" means.

As I said, in order to understand my point you have to give me an answer to this question, or else explain why you can't. Here it is again:

Are you a type A person or a type B person, or are you somewhere in between? Or, perhaps are you neither a type A person nor a type B person?

Remember my clear definitions:

A type A person is someone with type A attributes and behaviours.

A type B person is someone with type B attributes and behaviours.

So can you answer the question?

If so, can you give reasons for your answer?

If not then, given my clear definitions, why not?

 

[Paul2]

For me it has more to do with other secondary sex characteristics I think.

My dysphoria really increased after puberty, as I didn't want a deep voice, or excessive body and facial hair, or the lack of breast development, or all the testosterone that caused all those changes in my body and mood. I still have issues with some of those things, and covid isn't making things easier for me as my electrolysis and surgeries keep getting delayed.

Thank you for clarifying all that!

 

[theprestige]

I don't deny your identity as a woman. I just have disagreements about what that identity entitles you to.

Heh. A lot of the current debate seems to be around how much of the identity is defined by its entitlements.

 

[Boudicca90]

Yes, you did. None of your citations falsify E's C's claim.

These are all extremely transphobic arguments and are all things that TERFs frequently claim.

I'm tired of people telling me their bigotry towards us isn't bigotry.

 

[Elaedith]

These are all extremely transphobic arguments and are all things that TERFs frequently claim.

I'm tired of people telling me their bigotry towards us isn't bigotry.

A transphobic argument is simply any argument that contradicts transgender ideology.

 

[JoeMorgue]

These are all extremely transphobic arguments and are all things that TERFs frequently claim.

I'm tired of people telling me their bigotry towards us isn't bigotry.

That's rather easy when you define "You disagree with me about any criteria as denying 'my identity.'" and classifying it as bigotry.

Your "identity" is not nearly as sacrosanct as you are treating it as, especially when you've divorced so entirely from any objective reality.

If you use your right hand for everything but "identify as a left hander" people aren't bigots for still thinking of you as right handed.

 

[Elaedith]

I mean, you know that's a nonsensical (and maybe deliberately inflammatory?) thing to write, right?

(You appear to be conflating - whether wilfully or ignorantly - a) a disquiet over the nature and severity of things like "conversion therapy" or medical/surgical interventions which are applied to people as young adolescents, with b) a blanket, militant brand of explicit transphobia. Oh and not to mention that, IIRC, the TERF acronym generally only applies to women.....)

TERF is systematically used to smear anyone who rejects any aspect of gender identity ideology. Obviously this applies most consistently to challenging the sacrosanct central tenet (trans women are women), which makes debate rather impossible since everything else essentially flows from this.

In the case of treatment for young adolescents, it is usually an important tenet that gender identity is innate and stable, present (if not actually expressed) in children, equivalent to sexual orientation. Therefore allowing a child to go through puberty in the sex they don't identify with is denying their true identity. Also, there is no need to wait because gender identity is stable (according to ideology). This is not actually based on evidence, just ideology. Denying this could well get you branded as a TERF for denying trans children essential medical treatment.