Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[theprestige]

What is a man that performs the stereotypical social roles of a woman, acts in line with the stereotypical behaviour of a woman, even thinks and experiences emotions like a stereotypical woman, but is very much convinced that he is a man?

I'd say that he is a man, which would mean that you can go on about gender roles and similar issues all you want, but the only thing that really matters is the internal perception (which might be biological or psychological). Hence, anything other than the internal perception of a person is meaningless for a discussion on gender.

We already know that's not true. How other people perceive your gender (sex) is an important part of the equation, in a lot of situations. It is precisely those situations, and how to handle them, that we are discussing.

 

[theprestige]

For example, if I entered the men's room, a man (either trans or cis) would be perfectly in their rights to tell me to get out because I don't belong in there.

Serious question: Why don't you belong in there?

 

[Rolfe]

Regardless of opinions on early transitions, it's a bit much to declare their lives "ruined." It's possible that they may regret it at some point. Or not. It's certainly not a given.

And even if they do regret it, writing their lives off as ruined basically equates the value of their lives to their sex organs.

Taking away the capacity of a child to experience sexual arousal (in the future, obviously) is a pretty big deal. Surgically altering a boy so that he has an artificially constructed organ that can't give him any pleasure and can only be the receptacle for someone else's penis is a pretty horrific thing to do.

Add to that the bone density issues, the need to take medication for life, the constant need to attend to the surgical site to keep it patent, the loss of intellectual potential, the drastically reduced pool of potential life partners... Well, I only hope the poor kids can make the best of it.

But to talk about the "choices" they made is ridiculous. As has been observed, we've heard about vegan cats and we all know who is making the choices there. Small boys encouraged to believe they're "really" girls in some metaphysical sense, and then steered into a pathway that attempts (with no hope of meaningful success) to turn them into a facsimile of a girl, because they wanted to dress up in a sparkly princess costume when they were three?

Adults are entitled to make their choices. The brain doesn't mature as far as judgement is concerned until the age of about 25 and puberty changes a lot of people's outlook. An adult has the benefit of that maturity. And yet many, most adult-transitioning men choose not to be castrated and not to have their penis removed.

Telling a toddler that he's really a girl and when he's older the doctor can give him an operation that will fix the mistake and turn him into a girl, so that he grows up in that expectation and reaches adolescence boxed into that choice with no realistic possibility of reconsidering is frankly child abuse. Allowing TV cameras to record every minute of this and broadcast it to a salacious audience - well, I have no words.

 

[Olmstead]

No, because even though lion society has indeed become more progressive, tolerant and understanding, the situation remains that the vastly prevailing majority of lions exhibit lionish behaviours and traits, and the vastly prevailing majority of lionesses exhibit lionessish behaviours and traits. So it's still a notable exception when, for example, a lion identifies as lionessish. Fortunately, lion society - on account of its progressive, tolerant and understanding nature - accepts that this particular lion identifies as lionessish, and encourages that lion to embrace lionessish traits (such as hunting at night).

However, there are at least a few lion prides in which a lion suddenly started hunting at night, and all the other members of the pride shrugged and said "Okay, you do you. We don't mind." This lion always felt accepted and never even considered the idea that he wasn't a proper lion. He was just a different lion.

 

[Olmstead]

We already know that's not true. How other people perceive your gender (sex) is an important part of the equation, in a lot of situations. It is precisely those situations, and how to handle them, that we are discussing.

I'm not sure what you mean. If a cis-man likes to wear dresses and make-up, stays at home taking care of children, etc. but always maintains that he is a man, would it ever be appropriate to consider him a woman once all these facts are known?

 

[Earthborn]

As has been observed, we've heard about vegan cats and we all know who is making the choices there.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Hint: it is not a pathway that attempts (with no hope of meaningful success) to turn them into a facsimile of a girl, because they wanted to dress up in a sparkly princess costume when they were three with no realistic possibility of reconsidering. That's not how it works. That is not how any of this works.

 

[theprestige]

I'm not sure what you mean. If a cis-man likes to wear dresses and make-up, stays at home taking care of children, etc. but always maintains that he is a man, would it ever be appropriate to consider him a woman once all these facts are known?

That's not one of the situations we're discussing in this thread, though. We're discussing the situations where a man wants to use the women's locker room, and compete in women's sports. In those situations, your idea that " the only thing that really matters is the internal perception" and "anything other than the internal perception of a person is meaningless for a discussion on gender" is wrong. In those situations, things other than that man's internal perception are central to the discussion of gender.

 

[Ziggurat]

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

I don't care what your gender theory is, making them a sexualized spectacle for adults in order to make money isn't something that any gender non-conforming child needs, let alone decides to do on their own.

That's not how it works. That is not how any of this works.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Rolfe]

I don't care what your gender theory is, making them a sexualized spectacle for adults in order to make money isn't something that any gender non-conforming child needs, let alone decides to do on their own.

No matter what happens now, Jazz Jennings has lost his childhood and adolescence. I don't know how it's possible for anyone to mature into a well-balanced, happy adult life after a growing-up experience like that, even if he's happy with never knowing what an orgasm is and most people who want to date him probably doing it out of curiosity or the desire to be associated with notoriety.

 

[Olmstead]

That's not one of the situations we're discussing in this thread, though. We're discussing the situations where a man wants to use the women's locker room, and compete in women's sports. In those situations, your idea that " the only thing that really matters is the internal perception" and "anything other than the internal perception of a person is meaningless for a discussion on gender" is wrong. In those situations, things other than that man's internal perception are central to the discussion of gender.

Oh. I kind of moved on from those two discussions and was just thinking about how gender roles are really meaningless for a discussion on whether transwomen are women.

There's only so many times I can write "Transwomen shouldn't be in women's sports because they all have a natural advantage that can only be removed artificially" before it gets old.

Not sure about the locker room issue. Both safety and comfort seem to be more about genitals and passing as a woman anyway. Those who are not okay with a post-op transwoman in the locker room won't care about gender.

 

[LondonJohn]

No offense LJ but she ain't rocket science to know the difference between a slightly different person of the same sex who may have a deformity and a trans women who is obviously a dude in body.

Yet it obviously appears to be rocket science (to some) to figure out how/why all of these examples:

- trans women
- women with severe limb deformities from Thalidamide effects
- women with abnormally large clitorises and excessive body hair
- women with large tumours in their abdomens

clearly have the potential to cause distress/offence/shock when they undress in a women's changing room, and yet (apparently), from among all those examples, only one category (in their opinion):

- trans women

somehow lose the right to use the women's changing rooms.


I see.....

(I don't see)

 

[LondonJohn]

This isn't the same questions

What makes a mare a mare and a stallion a stallion

And what makes a cow a cow and a bull a bull

No, no, no. I wasn't equating "horse/cow" to "man/woman".

I was dealing with the overall concept of "what makes a thing the thing that it is".

My comparison between the two was intended to pose the question: "how do we understand that a horse is a horse and a cow is a cow, and on what basis do we determine the difference between the two?"


Tough going, this un-gated social media lark........

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh. I kind of moved on from those two discussions and was just thinking about how gender roles are really meaningless for a discussion on whether transwomen are women.

There's only so many times I can write "Transwomen shouldn't be in women's sports because they all have a natural advantage that can only be removed artificially" before it gets old.

Not sure about the locker room issue. Both safety and comfort seem to be more about genitals and passing as a woman anyway. Those who are not okay with a post-op transwoman in the locker room won't care about gender.

The "trans women in women's sport" is a unique circumstance.

And it's a unique circumstance which has only one reasonable solution: do not allow trans women to compete in those women's sports where physiological factors play a part in overall success, and where the competition in question is of a serious, organised type (ie not something like the parents' egg and spoon race at the school sports day...)


I'm not sure if even the most militant trans-activists are arguing that trans women should be allowed to compete at parity in women's sporting events. But if they are arguing that, then (IMO) they are totally wrong. And I feel confident that, in any case, all moderate transgender people and their supporters would not be pushing for trans women to be allowed into women's sports.

So IMO it's probably safe to say that we can move past the "women's sports" thing.......


(But as for the intolerance on display wrt trans women using the women's changing rooms..... well, let me just say that it's *interesting* to observe)

 

[Earthborn]

I don't care what your gender theory is, making them a sexualized spectacle for adults in order to make money isn't something that any gender non-conforming child needs,

I haven't seen the "I am Jazz" show, but reading descriptions of it I can't see how it is a "sexualised spectacle"

let alone decides to do on their own.

A 15 year old wanting to be a TV star... Never heard of such a thing.

No matter what happens now, Jazz Jennings has lost his childhood and adolescence.

Seems odd to mourn the loss of a hypothetical alternative life path for someone else who does not herself regret the path she took.

She had a childhood and an adolescence. It just was bit different.

I don't know how it's possible for anyone to mature into a well-balanced, happy adult life after a growing-up experience like that

Seems to have happened anyway.

 

[Rolfe]

Ya think?

 

[Olmstead]

No, no, no. I wasn't equating "horse/cow" to "man/woman".

I was dealing with the overall concept of "what makes a thing the thing that it is".

My comparison between the two was intended to pose the question: "how do we understand that a horse is a horse and a cow is a cow, and on what basis do we determine the difference between the two?"


Tough going, this un-gated social media lark........

If you perform some sci-fi surgery on a cow to make its form resemble a horse and inject it with just the right drugs and chemicals to make it behave like a horse, is it now a horse?

 

[theprestige]

Oh. I kind of moved on from those two discussions and was just thinking about how gender roles are really meaningless for a discussion on whether transwomen are women.

There's only so many times I can write "Transwomen shouldn't be in women's sports because they all have a natural advantage that can only be removed artificially" before it gets old.

Not sure about the locker room issue. Both safety and comfort seem to be more about genitals and passing as a woman anyway. Those who are not okay with a post-op transwoman in the locker room won't care about gender.

Fair enough. I missed the point you were making. My bad.

However, I'm not sure I agree that "gender roles are really meaningless for a discussion on whether transwomen are women".

The way I'd put the central question is this:

Is a transwoman a woman because she says she's a woman, or because society says she's a woman?

I think the answer is, it's a combination of both. And on the society side, the social construct of gender, including gender roles, is one of the factors deciding the answer.

In your thought experiment of the effeminate, transvestite man doing traditional 'woman's work' but still calling himself a man, it seems clear that his biological sex overrides the other factors in determining society's answer.

So maybe it's the other way around: Without gendered social roles, being transgender is meaningless, at least as far as society is concerned.

 

[LondonJohn]

In general terms, I am very uneasy about any practice of offering young adolescents therapy which validates a trans lived identity. And I'm more than very uneasy about any practice of offering young adolescents medicinal/hormonal treatments and/or reassignment surgeries.

In my view, the prudent and sensible approach - while still trying to respect and show sensitivity to the person concerned - would be to engage young adolescents with gender dysphoria in "holding" therapy: therapy which acknowledges and respects their condition, but which countenances reaching full adulthood before more active/affirmative approaches are offered.

I realise that this might have the consequence of causing a further element of distress or confusion to those young adolescents with gender dysphoria, but I personally (though provisionally) believe that the risk of causing future harm tends to mitigate any benefits arising from early affirmative treatment.

 

[LondonJohn]

If you perform some sci-fi surgery on a cow to make its form resemble a horse and inject it with just the right drugs and chemicals to make it behave like a horse, is it now a horse?

Not what I'm talking about at all.

 

[Rolfe]

In general terms, I am very uneasy about any practice of offering young adolescents therapy which validates a trans lived identity. And I'm more than very uneasy about any practice of offering young adolescents medicinal/hormonal treatments and/or reassignment surgeries.

In my view, the prudent and sensible approach - while still trying to respect and show sensitivity to the person concerned - would be to engage young adolescents with gender dysphoria in "holding" therapy: therapy which acknowledges and respects their condition, but which countenances reaching full adulthood before more active/affirmative approaches are offered.

I realise that this might have the consequence of causing a further element of distress or confusion to those young adolescents with gender dysphoria, but I personally (though provisionally) believe that the risk of causing future harm tends to mitigate any benefits arising from early affirmative treatment.

When the treatment you advocate is employed a very large majority of these children become comfortable with their natal sex after going through puberty. However this approach is now being outlawed as "conversion therapy" thanks to the representations of the trans lobby.

(I actually agree with you about this.)