Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[elemental]

I see gender identity as having more to do with the brain and how it is structured rather than genetics. So gender is primarily mental and psychological, but with a biological basis behind it. If you talk purely genetics then yes, we aren't the same there, but gender dysphoria is when the brain and body don't align properly. I think for all the things that matter, I should be treated the same as a cisgender woman like you.

When I first started transitioning, I used the restroom that best fit my presentation at the time. I was afraid to use the women's room until I felt like my presence wouldn't cause a problem anymore. So I do agree with that, to use the restroom that best fits your gender expression. But I also think we should be equal in sports and prisons as well.

Research has been showing that with long enough on HRT, the physical differences between trans and cis women become minimal. I can personally attest to that after having been on HRT for 3 years. I wanted to post a link to some research but I don't have enough posts apparently, so the researchers name is Joanna Harper.

So I agree with IOC regs on trans players. And we shouldn't be segregated in prisons unless we can be shown to be a danger to the rest of the population (like with sex offenders and rapists).

I don't think you answered the question.

What does it feel like to be a woman? What does being a woman feel like? What does it mean to be a woman?

 

[The Atheist]

Research has been showing that with long enough on HRT, the physical differences between trans and cis women become minimal. I can personally attest to that after having been on HRT for 3 years. I wanted to post a link to some research but I don't have enough posts apparently, so the researchers name is Joanna Harper.

You can post links after 15 posts.

And thanks for coming in and giving your personal perspective.

10/10

Excellent name, too - one of my favourite historical characters.

 

[Ziggurat]

I see gender identity as having more to do with the brain and how it is structured rather than genetics. So gender is primarily mental and psychological, but with a biological basis behind it. If you talk purely genetics then yes, we aren't the same there, but gender dysphoria is when the brain and body don't align properly. I think for all the things that matter, I should be treated the same as a cisgender woman like you.

Does who people want to have sex with matter? I would say so.

When I first started transitioning, I used the restroom that best fit my presentation at the time. I was afraid to use the women's room until I felt like my presence wouldn't cause a problem anymore. So I do agree with that, to use the restroom that best fits your gender expression. But I also think we should be equal in sports and prisons as well.

Sports, definitely no. Males retain advantages in most sports even after medical transition. Prisons, maybe in some cases, but the standard cannot be simply self declaration.

Research has been showing that with long enough on HRT, the physical differences between trans and cis women become minimal.

That is simply false. If any researchers have reached that conclusion, they aren’t looking at all the data. There is more to the performance difference than just muscle mass. Males have larger lung capacities, for example. They have skeletal differences too which hormones cannot erase, such as narrower hips and less knee angle which makes running more efficient. And bone strength and density advantages do not suffer from hormone therapy. Neuromuscular efficiency is also better for men than women, and HRT doesn’t make that go away. The biological advantages men have over women in sports extend beyond just muscle mass. These differences add up, and they are not negligible.

I can personally attest to that after having been on HRT for 3 years.

No, you cannot. You can attest that HRT has significantly reduced your strength, but a sample size of one doesn’t suffice to say anything beyond that, and that isn’t enough.

 

[Boudicca90]

Does who people want to have sex with matter? I would say so.

Sure, everyone has their preferences when it comes to genitals and gender. I do too.

Sports, definitely no. Males retain advantages in most sports even after medical transition. Prisons, maybe in some cases, but the standard cannot be simply self declaration.



That is simply false. If any researchers have reached that conclusion, they aren’t looking at all the data. There is more to the performance difference than just muscle mass. Males have larger lung capacities, for example. They have skeletal differences too which hormones cannot erase, such as narrower hips and less knee angle which makes running more efficient. And bone strength and density advantages do not suffer from hormone therapy. Neuromuscular efficiency is also better for men than women, and HRT doesn’t make that go away. The biological advantages men have over women in sports extend beyond just muscle mass. These differences add up, and they are not negligible.



No, you cannot. You can attest that HRT has significantly reduced your strength, but a sample size of one doesn’t suffice to say anything beyond that, and that isn’t enough.

A lot of those differences are overstated when it comes to the difference in performance, much like the difference would be between someone who is 5'8" vs. someone who is 6'5". I noticed in the military that the airmen who would dominate PFT were all tall and skinny. That body type gave them an advantage to all areas of the test, but I didn't cry foul being short and disadvantaged compared to them.

And while it's anecdotal, and i'm not an athlete of any kind, my physical abilities are in line with my cisgender female friends. And they don't see me as having any advantage over them.

 

[Boudicca90]

I don't think you answered the question.

What does it feel like to be a woman? What does being a woman feel like? What does it mean to be a woman?

My view is that being a man or woman is looking like and feeling like that gender. To be honest, I don't know how I would describe it just like I don't think I could really describe being a man to anyone's satisfaction, despite having presented as one for so long. I just know being a woman fits me when being a man made me try to kill myself, and that's enough for me.

 

[Ziggurat]

A lot of those differences are overstated when it comes to the difference in performance, much like the difference would be between someone who is 5'8" vs. someone who is 6'5".

In competitive sports, differences which may seem insignificant in everyday life are often the difference between the winners and losers. For example, the 2016 gold medal men's 100 meter sprint had a time of 9.81 seconds. The 4th place finisher had a time of 9.93 seconds. That's only a 1.2% difference. Tiny, completely negligible most of the time.

Competitive sports isn't most of the time.

 

[Boudicca90]

In competitive sports, differences which may seem insignificant in everyday life are often the difference between the winners and losers. For example, the 2016 gold medal men's 100 meter sprint had a time of 9.81 seconds. The 4th place finisher had a time of 9.93 seconds. That's only a 1.2% difference. Tiny, completely negligible most of the time.

Competitive sports isn't most of the time.

And if the difference is that small, which it often is, chalking it up to some minor differences in physicality due to a different birth sex is irrelevant. If a trans person has a similar hormone profile to a cis person of the same gender for at least a year or more, they shouldn't be segregated.

 

[Ziggurat]

And if the difference is that small, which it often is, chalking it up to some minor differences in physicality due to a different birth sex is irrelevant. If a trans person has a similar hormone profile to a cis person of the same gender for at least a year or more, they shouldn't be segregated.

Again, no. The physical differences between the sexes extend well beyond hormone profiles, and they are significant.

 

[Meadmaker]

And if the difference is that small, which it often is, chalking it up to some minor differences in physicality due to a different birth sex is irrelevant. If a trans person has a similar hormone profile to a cis person of the same gender for at least a year or more, they shouldn't be segregated.

My bigger problem with sports is at the high school level.

 

[lionking]

And if the difference is that small, which it often is, chalking it up to some minor differences in physicality due to a different birth sex is irrelevant. If a trans person has a similar hormone profile to a cis person of the same gender for at least a year or more, they shouldn't be segregated.

The thing is that professional athletes who were born women and compete as women do not agree with this. Often their experience is that after 10 years or more of arduous training they are being blown off the track/park/pool etc by people who have recently transitioned. You can't ignore this group of athletes.

 

[cullennz]

And if the difference is that small, which it often is, chalking it up to some minor differences in physicality due to a different birth sex is irrelevant. If a trans person has a similar hormone profile to a cis person of the same gender for at least a year or more, they shouldn't be segregated.

They don't have the same hormone profile and certainly wouldn't after just a year.

They just have to meet a limit most women could never be at.

 

[Boudicca90]

There isn't some great rush of trans athletes beating cis ones, that is just overblown propaganda. The reality is it often doesn't make much of a difference, despite all the hatred of us that happens if we win. Someone who was at the top of their ranking before transitioning will most likely still be after doing so, but for the most part, most trans athletes are just as average as anybody else.

I will say after looking over the IOC's regulations more closely that the testosterone levels are way too high. Current standard is under 10 nmol/L with the recommendation of 5 nmol/L instead in the future, but I still think that is too high and it's not within the range of ciswomen. My level is kept under 1.5 nmol/L, which is in the range of what it should be imo.

 

[lionking]

There isn't some great rush of trans athletes beating cis ones, that is just overblown propaganda. The reality is it often doesn't make much of a difference, despite all the hatred of us that happens if we win. Someone who was at the top of their ranking before transitioning will most likely still be after doing so, but for the most part, most trans athletes are just as average as anybody else.

I will say after looking over the IOC's regulations more closely that the testosterone levels are way too high. Current standard is under 10 nmol/L with the recommendation of 5 nmol/L instead in the future, but I still think that is too high and it's not within the range of ciswomen. My level is kept under 1.5 nmol/L, which is in the range of what it should be imo.

And that’s the problem I’m talking about. Not village cricket, local football and so on. Professional athletes make their living from their sport by definition and you can’t ignore women athletes not able to compete with trans women. Some in this thread (and maybe you) think this is a secondary issue, but I don’t when I see people deprived of their livelihood through unfair competition.

 

[cullennz]

And that’s the problem I’m talking about. Not village cricket, local football and so on. Professional athletes make their living from their sport by definition and you can’t ignore women athletes not able to compete with trans women. Some in this thread (and maybe you) think this is a secondary issue, but I don’t when I see people deprived of their livelihood through unfair competition.

Agree.

We are not talking farting around at the weekend knocking a ball round here.

We are talking about women's careers and in some case maybe what they can most achieve at.

It is frankly ridiculous imho.

 

[Ziggurat]

There isn't some great rush of trans athletes beating cis ones

Not yet, but there are so few transgender athletes now that this doesn't mean much. Behavior responds to incentives. The incentives have changed. Expect behavior to change. That's human nature.

We are already seeing far more transgender athletes at the highschool level than there were 10 years ago. As they become adults, the pool of potential transgender athletes at the upper levels will expand.

 

[Rolfe]

well, I'm out. Here's a newbie who could be telling the truth or who could be making up the best story he or she can think of in order to "win" this thread for the trans lobby. In either case, discussion will be strangled so as not to give "offence" or "hurt".

Never mind the offence and hurt all this causes to women, obviously, the main thing is that people like the poster with the handle "Boudicca90" should never suffer offence or hurt. So everyone starts tiptoeing round this poster, oh please tell me how it is from your perspective, and all the replies have to be filtered through a prism of "could this upset this new poster who claims to be a transwoman?"

Not playing that game. Carry on.

 

[JihadJane]

Well all my legal documents state me as female and I am seen and accepted as female wherever I go, so what I was born as and what genitals I have are irrelevant.

https://thelawdictionary.org/legal-fiction/

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes.

Sure thing.



To be clear, I was asking about sex rather than gender.

ETA: I think we need a term for people who produce small motile gametes, and another term for those born w/ large immobile gametes. Traditionally, that's "male" and "female" respectively.

Sure the problems come that people like to keep those definitions even to those who don't produce such gametes. For example women don't stop being female at menopause or men stop being male if they say lose their testicles.

That works but doesn't fit anything about gender and who is regarded as having male or female gender.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ignoring the rest of that borderline MRA rant...

Men get raped... by other men.

And by women, though this depends on how one defines rape. Legally having non consensual sex where one is not penetrated is sometimes treated differently than non consensual sex where one is penetrated.

Of course men are even more likely to view sex that they did not consent to but did not fight against strongly as rape.

 

[lionking]

Sure the problems come that people like to keep those definitions even to those who don't produce such gametes. For example women don't stop being female at menopause or men stop being male if they say lose their testicles.

That works but doesn't fit anything about gender and who is regarded as having male or female gender.

Yet another pointless post. Keep them coming.