Cont: Trans Women are not Women 3

[Meadmaker]

Quite possibly, but I think the charge would have been trespassing. The law can enforce private rules, but that doesn't make those private rules law.

Depends on exactly which ladies' room he went into, but that would be the most likely charge.

 

[Rolfe]

The problem with transmen in the ladies' room is entirely because men desire to flout the single-sex norms, and indeed do flout these norms. If women could be 100% certain that anyone in the ladies' room was genuinely female, then there would be no need for discomfort or misunderstanding. It would be immediately understood what the position was.

Transmen (and sometimes masculine-looking women) are or can be regarded with suspicion because it's feared that they are actually men flouting the norms. If we had no reason to fear that men might flout the norms, there would be no reason to be concerned about masculine-presenting women. Is that too difficult for people to understand?

 

[theprestige]

The problem with transmen in the ladies' room is entirely because men desire to flout the single-sex norms, and indeed do flout these norms. If women could be 100% certain that anyone in the ladies' room was genuinely female, then there would be no need for discomfort or misunderstanding. It would be immediately understood what the position was.

Transmen (and sometimes masculine-looking women) are or can be regarded with suspicion because it's feared that they are actually men flouting the norms. If we had no reason to fear that men might flout the norms, there would be no reason to be concerned about masculine-presenting women. Is that too difficult for people to understand?

You start with a social issue worth examining, but then you take a hard turn into straight misandrist bigotry.

 

[Lithrael]

I’m not convinced by the argument that allowing trans women is inseperable from opening the floodgates for regular male pervs.

We are not quite there yet as far as an agreement on what perving even is though so I’m not saying figuring it all out is not gonna be contentious.

 

[Boudicca90]

It wouldn't make anyone happy. The females who value single-sex spaces would be unhappy, and the males who get their kicks from "exisiting" in female-only spaces would also be unhappy. They absolutely don't want unisex facilities, they want segregated facilities so that they can glory in being in the wrong one. Look at the reaction if a third unisex space is suggested. They don't "just want to pee", they want to be in the female spaces as of right and a unisex space doesn't satisfy them.

As a transgender woman (not a "man" or "male", like people like you like to call us) who is passable enough that I don't get any looks in women's restrooms or locker rooms, I have no problem with unisex restrooms for non-binary/genderqueer people who don't easily fit into a specific gender, but it would be discriminatory to force us to use them. I am a woman same as you, not some kind of third sex like other cultures like to define us as. We do have the right to be in those spaces because we are women, just as trans men are men.

The problem is a very narrow definition of gender and sex that forces us all into categories based on genitals and chromosomes, both of which don't determine gender in a person.

 

[d4m10n]

Clarification

Is there a generally agreed upon definition of "male" for our purposes here?

 

[Lithrael]

No, I don’t think there is a thread consensus. One is too narrow and the other too nebulous for everyone to agree it means what they intend it to mean when it’s used in this discussion.

 

[d4m10n]

No, I don’t think there is a thread consensus. One is too narrow and the other too nebulous for everyone to agree it means what they intend it to mean when it’s used in this discussion.

Is the wiki concept of male^WP the overly narrow one? It seems serviceable enough to me, well, at least a significant majority of the time.

ETA: Shorter wiki, if you've ever produced sperm, you're male. If you possess a set of healthy testicles which will someday produce sperm, you're male.

 

[Boudicca90]

Is the wiki concept of male^WP the overly narrow one? It seems serviceable enough to me, well, at least a significant majority of the time.

ETA: Shorter wiki, if you've ever produced sperm, you're male. If you possess a set of healthy testicles which will someday produce sperm, you're male.

That is the definition of male when it comes to sex, not gender. It's the description we give to anybody with XY chromosomes in our species. And it is only one of several factors that indicate gender in a person (and sometimes that factor is misleading).

 

[d4m10n]

That is the definition of male when it comes to sex, not gender.

Yes.

It's the description we give to anybody with XY chromosomes in our species.

Sure thing.

And it is only one of several factors that indicate gender in a person (and sometimes that factor is misleading).

To be clear, I was asking about sex rather than gender.

ETA: I think we need a term for people who produce small motile gametes, and another term for those born w/ large immobile gametes. Traditionally, that's "male" and "female" respectively.

 

[JihadJane]

The problem with transmen in the ladies' room is entirely because men desire to flout the single-sex norms, and indeed do flout these norms. If women could be 100% certain that anyone in the ladies' room was genuinely female, then there would be no need for discomfort or misunderstanding. It would be immediately understood what the position was.

Transmen (and sometimes masculine-looking women) are or can be regarded with suspicion because it's feared that they are actually men flouting the norms. If we had no reason to fear that men might flout the norms, there would be no reason to be concerned about masculine-presenting women. Is that too difficult for people to understand?

Yes, apparently.

 

[JihadJane]

As a transgender woman (not a "man" or "male", like people like you like to call us) who is passable enough that I don't get any looks in women's restrooms or locker rooms, I have no problem with unisex restrooms for non-binary/genderqueer people who don't easily fit into a specific gender, but it would be discriminatory to force us to use them. I am a woman same as you, not some kind of third sex like other cultures like to define us as. We do have the right to be in those spaces because we are women, just as trans men are men.

The problem is a very narrow definition of gender and sex that forces us all into categories based on genitals and chromosomes, both of which don't determine gender in a person.

No, you aren't a woman the same a Rolfe. Your sex is male.

 

[p0lka]

So. what is the extremist position that is opposite yours, because I can't see anyone here espousing extremism on the "anti-trans" side?

Did you not read what you just replied to?
I'm not on a side, therefore there's no 'opposite'.

On the underlying philosophical issue, there is the question about whether transwomen are really women. If you are labelling everyone who says no as an extremist, then I guess there are an awful lot of extremists in the world. Aside from the question of how the majority can be extremists, what it seems you have done is just create a label for everyone who disagrees with you, so you can ignore them. Argument by name-calling can be very effective in gathering popular support, but it isn't logical.

In terms of transgirl participation in women's sports, lots of us say no, but I don't think that's extremist. Is there any position short of allowing complete and unrestricted participation by transgirls that is not extremist? What I'm getting at is it just seems that the goal is to label people extremist and then declare victory.


In terms of access to women's spaces, there are a variety of opinions. Some of us are willing to compromise a little bit. Some are willing to compromise a lot more. Some are not willing to compromise at all. Rolfe has spoken up against compromise using very well supported arguments about why compromise is letting the camel's nose under the tent. It's not like this is some slippery slope fallacy. She is arguing that what has already happened, will happen. So, even the most strident arguments here are well founded and well inside the mainstream of society at large. I don't think it is extremist.


We might have had some occasional input from some people that are just a flat out "no", but not many and not from the regular participants. Again, I ask if there any position other than free and unrestricted access to women's spaces by transwomen that is not extremist? What would a non-extreme position be that is not, "Trans women are women, and should be treated exactly like every other women in every other circumstance, and they should not have to operate under any restriction not imposed on any other woman?" Because, to me, that position seems pretty extreme.

You are making an assumption about me that is leading you astray.

I've made my position clear regarding this topic previously in this thread, go read the thread, instead of labelling me as 'one side or the other', sheesh.

 

[Boudicca90]

No, you aren't a woman the same a Rolfe. Your sex is male.

Well all my legal documents state me as female and I am seen and accepted as female wherever I go, so what I was born as and what genitals I have are irrelevant.

 

[Ziggurat]

Well all my legal documents state me as female and I am seen and accepted as female wherever I go, so what I was born as and what genitals I have are irrelevant.

They may be irrelevant to many situations. They are not irrelevant to all situations.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As a transgender woman (not a "man" or "male", like people like you like to call us) who is passable enough that I don't get any looks in women's restrooms or locker rooms, I have no problem with unisex restrooms for non-binary/genderqueer people who don't easily fit into a specific gender, but it would be discriminatory to force us to use them.

...

The problem is a very narrow definition of gender and sex that forces us all into categories based on genitals and chromosomes, both of which don't determine gender in a person.

I have zero objection to anyone who is even moderately passing. Hell, if they seem like they're giving it a genuine go, I'm fine with that. Not so crazy about adult male genitalia being exposed in the presence of minor girls, though.

I'm for the common sense approach, which I've presented several times: Use whichever restroom or locker room most people are probably going to assume you belong in. If you have body parts that are likely to create interest or concern in a locker room, even though your other attributes wouldn't, be discrete.

I don't require a narrow definition of gender. Sex is what it is, it's biology. The only places I start backing off a bit are when it comes to specific items, where it really is a matter of sex that is at the heart of it. Sports, for instance, is a tough one, because there is an undeniable physical advantage for people who had a male puberty. Some of that can be countered by hormone treatments, but not all of it.

Prisons is another one, where I'm really not okay with physically intact transwomen being placed in the female prisons. I have no problem being inconsistent on this one, though - there's a need for some reasonable judgment. So a transwoman who has actively been living as a woman for an extended period of time, but hasn't fully surgically transitioned and has no history of violence, sure, maybe place them with the ladies. I'll also own my double standard here and say that even if a transman has fully transitioned, it's probably safer for him to be housed with the females than with the males. If he hasn't transitioned, he should definitely NOT be housed with the males.

I am a woman same as you, not some kind of third sex like other cultures like to define us as. We do have the right to be in those spaces because we are women, just as trans men are men.

As a transwoman, I would very much like to hear what your perspective is on what it means to be a woman. I have no ill-will, and I mean no offense, and I'll happily and wholeheartedly treat you how you wish to be treated in almost every possible situation. But I truly don't understand how you can claim to be a woman the same as me.

I don't understand what 'being a woman' means to you. My experience of being a woman is innately tied to my sex and my lived experience. So I would genuinely appreciate it if you would be willing to share your perspective on this.

 

[GaughEyad]

OH! MY! GOD!

What is with you people! This is that elevator idiocy from a decade ago all over again!

"He could have raped her!"

"Did he?"

"No."

"Did he even try?"

"No."

*jesters back and forth incredulously*

When you can prove that all men are sex addicted perverts, which is pretty much what people against allowing transgendered people from using the facilities they identify with or in regards to creating unisex facilities for all are on about, then you can have a discussion. Until then this "women are special and need special places" crap is just that: Crap.

How about we go back to the 1950s and women can go back to staying at home taking care of the kids if they want to feel so special. If the genders are equal, then WHAT THE HELL is any of this about?

I've noticed a very, very concerning issue with western society: Women want access to all of the spaces and social rights as men. Totally cool. Equality for all. But, here's the rub, they REFUSE to give the same considerations to anyone else, be they male or trans.

This is simply another sign of that.

"WE MIGHT GET RAPED SO WE NEED TO BE ALLOWED TO KEEP OUT PEOPLE WE DON'T WANT!"

Well grow up girls, and you are girls. Equality means equality and not just when you want it. Women want more power and control? Then they can give up their "safe spaces" that they've been telling society for generations now that they don't need. They're just as good, smart, strong, and tough as any man, right? Well now's the time to prove it. Put up or shut up.

Men get raped to you know. But, here in the US no one wants to discuss it. In fact, the stats regarding male rape aren't even referred to as such. They're referred to as "forced penetration" and buried while female RAPE is front and center for all to ooh and ah over. So how about we stop using the term rape all together and start referring to it as forced penetration for everyone.

But women wouldn't like that, would they, as it would be taking away their "special privilege" to be the only gender that can be raped.

GROW!

UP!

Unisex facilities with separate stalls fixes everything for everyone. If you're uncomfortable with that idea you're a bigot.

Period.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Men get raped to you know. But, here in the US no one wants to discuss it.

Ignoring the rest of that borderline MRA rant...

Men get raped... by other men.

Both men and women are victims of rape.
Which are the vast majority of perpetrators of rape?

 

[Meadmaker]

When you can prove that all men are sex addicted perverts, which is pretty much what people against allowing transgendered people from using the facilities they identify with or in regards to creating unisex facilities for all are on about, then you can have a discussion.

Hi, and welcome.

One of the things I have found over the years here is that a lot of people are convinced that people on "the other side" think certain things. It doesn't matter what the issue is or which two sides there are, it always seems there is an attempt to divide into two groups and, having done so assign to the other group certain thoughts.

People who argue for segregation by sex really aren't all on about all of that. Hopefully we can clear things up.

 

[Boudicca90]

I have zero objection to anyone who is even moderately passing. Hell, if they seem like they're giving it a genuine go, I'm fine with that. Not so crazy about adult male genitalia being exposed in the presence of minor girls, though.

I'm for the common sense approach, which I've presented several times: Use whichever restroom or locker room most people are probably going to assume you belong in. If you have body parts that are likely to create interest or concern in a locker room, even though your other attributes wouldn't, be discrete.

I don't require a narrow definition of gender. Sex is what it is, it's biology. The only places I start backing off a bit are when it comes to specific items, where it really is a matter of sex that is at the heart of it. Sports, for instance, is a tough one, because there is an undeniable physical advantage for people who had a male puberty. Some of that can be countered by hormone treatments, but not all of it.

Prisons is another one, where I'm really not okay with physically intact transwomen being placed in the female prisons. I have no problem being inconsistent on this one, though - there's a need for some reasonable judgment. So a transwoman who has actively been living as a woman for an extended period of time, but hasn't fully surgically transitioned and has no history of violence, sure, maybe place them with the ladies. I'll also own my double standard here and say that even if a transman has fully transitioned, it's probably safer for him to be housed with the females than with the males. If he hasn't transitioned, he should definitely NOT be housed with the males.


As a transwoman, I would very much like to hear what your perspective is on what it means to be a woman. I have no ill-will, and I mean no offense, and I'll happily and wholeheartedly treat you how you wish to be treated in almost every possible situation. But I truly don't understand how you can claim to be a woman the same as me.

I don't understand what 'being a woman' means to you. My experience of being a woman is innately tied to my sex and my lived experience. So I would genuinely appreciate it if you would be willing to share your perspective on this.

I see gender identity as having more to do with the brain and how it is structured rather than genetics. So gender is primarily mental and psychological, but with a biological basis behind it. If you talk purely genetics then yes, we aren't the same there, but gender dysphoria is when the brain and body don't align properly. I think for all the things that matter, I should be treated the same as a cisgender woman like you.

When I first started transitioning, I used the restroom that best fit my presentation at the time. I was afraid to use the women's room until I felt like my presence wouldn't cause a problem anymore. So I do agree with that, to use the restroom that best fits your gender expression. But I also think we should be equal in sports and prisons as well.

Research has been showing that with long enough on HRT, the physical differences between trans and cis women become minimal. I can personally attest to that after having been on HRT for 3 years. I wanted to post a link to some research but I don't have enough posts apparently, so the researchers name is Joanna Harper.

So I agree with IOC regs on trans players. And we shouldn't be segregated in prisons unless we can be shown to be a danger to the rest of the population (like with sex offenders and rapists).