The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread

[acbytesla]

Apparently some of the parks in Oregon began reopening last week. Others are reopening this week.


There's often issues involved that are not readily apparent. See the hilited part? It may be that local communities around some the parks urged the state to keep them shut down.

That's good news. But it doesn't explain keeping the campgrounds closed.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

I'd really love to go camping. However, so would a lot of other people. I'd have a tent pad next to someone else's tent, we'd use the same toilet facilities. No one would be available to disinfect them between uses. Essentially camping would make a whole lot of people temporarily households---which is kinda the opposite of social distancing.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Well, I suppose people could enjoy national parks like that woman who fell into the thermal pool at Yellowstone. The lava would sterilize the germs on the corpses, rendering the experience quite safe for everyone!

 

[newyorkguy]

What's their explanation for keeping the campgounds closed?

Camping requires further travel and congregates people into one area for longer periods of time. We’re opening for limited day-use with the expectation that people will not travel long distances, or into communities that are not yet ready for campers and long-term visitors. We expect people to keep a safe distance from one another—at least 6 feet. If this is does not happen, we may have to close parks again. Nearly all of our parks have spots or trails where you can get away from other people. The problem is that our parks also have common areas where large numbers of people congregate: restrooms, parking areas, trailheads, narrow bridge crossings, etc. Those choke points make it extremely hard to practice physical distancing.

Another factor may be that the normal staff is not present, especially "seasonal staff and volunteers."

But wow, we're closing in on 1.5 million people infected, almost 85,000 people have died and someone's upset because they can't use their refillable soda cup? Like my ex-Boss used to say: "You can't make this stuff up!"

 

[acbytesla]

I'd really love to go camping. However, so would a lot of other people. I'd have a tent pad next to someone else's tent, we'd use the same toilet facilities. No one would be available to disinfect them between uses. Essentially camping would make a whole lot of people temporarily households---which is kinda the opposite of social distancing.

There are lots of people that travel in RVs and Campers that are self contained. There are also a lot more people than you realize that travel full time and have no other home than their motorhome.

 

[acbytesla]

What's their explanation for keeping the campgounds closed?


Another factor may be that the normal staff is not present, especially "seasonal staff and volunteers."

But wow, we're closing in on 1.5 million people infected, almost 85,000 people have died and someone's upset because they can't use their refillable soda cup? Like my ex-Boss used to say: "You can't make this stuff up!"

I'm not upset. If there is a legitimate reason, absolutely implement it. It's when there really appears no reason, that people start to question their leaders. Some of these little things add up. You want it to be safe AND as un-restrictive as possible.

 

[phiwum]

Delete: Already answered.

 

[newyorkguy]

In all seriousness, I had to go to the bank today to get a cashier's check. There's a branch near my home that still has teller service available. The branch was unexpectedly crowded. The other couple times I was there I walked right in. There was no one there! Just the tellers. Today I had to stand in line. There were two women on either side of me -- six feet apart -- and they also weren't expecting a line and we started chatting. Very interesting.

One woman was older, maybe around sixty. The other younger, maybe mid-twenties. They were both recovered from a bout with coronavirus. The older lady said she was sick for about eleven days. For three or four of them VERY sick. I told her so far I hadn't caught the virus and the sickest I'd ever been was when I caught Type E Influenza about ten years ago. She said yeah, she'd had seasonal flu but she'd never "been that sick before." That there had been two or three days when she was really out of it. The younger woman said the same thing. Eleven-twelve days in pretty rough shape with a three day span where she was utterly sick. The worst day she was so weak and dizzy she hadn't been able to stand up. When she went to the bathroom she had to crawl. That was the day, she said, she thought maybe she wasn't going to make it.

It's no joke.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

Yeah, this is normal:

Lou Dobbs poll asks if Trump’s response to coronavirus has been “superb,” “great” or “very good”
https://www.mediamatters.org/lou-do...oronavirus-has-been-superb-great-or-very-good

A related poll asks if Lou Dobbs’ hair should be colored mustard, ashen, or vantablack.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Trump hypes a “Transition Into Greatness”, but forgets to grab the domain...


https://transitionintogreatness.com/


Or maybe it's just sad.

 

[alfaniner]

I don't think I've seen this question addressed: If you and your family have been in quarantine for 14 days, and say, your sister's family across town has also been, shouldn't you be able to visit each other without restriction?

 

[acbytesla]

In all seriousness, I had to go to the bank today to get a cashier's check. There's a branch near my home that still has teller service available. The branch was unexpectedly crowded. The other couple times I was there I walked right in. There was no one there! Just the tellers. Today I had to stand in line. There were two women on either side of me -- six feet apart -- and they also weren't expecting a line and we started chatting. Very interesting.

One woman was older, maybe around sixty. The other younger, maybe mid-twenties. They were both recovered from a bout with coronavirus. The older lady said she was sick for about eleven days. For three or four of them VERY sick. I told her so far I hadn't caught the virus and the sickest I'd ever been was when I caught Type E Influenza about ten years ago. She said yeah, she'd had seasonal flu but she'd never "been that sick before." That there had been two or three days when she was really out of it. The younger woman said the same thing. Eleven-twelve days in pretty rough shape with a three day span where she was utterly sick. The worst day she was so weak and dizzy she hadn't been able to stand up. When she went to the bathroom she had to crawl. That was the day, she said, she thought maybe she wasn't going to make it.

It's no joke.

I don't think anything that kills 120,000 people in 6 months could ever be a joke. I also don't think an economic disaster is a joke either. Still, this really is nothing if you compare it to WW2. FDR rallied the country to get it done. People sacrificed and mostly pulled together. In contrast, Trump is trying to tear the country apart.

 

[AnonyMoose]

There are lots of people that travel in RVs and Campers that are self contained. There are also a lot more people than you realize that travel full time and have no other home than their motorhome.

No such thing as "self contained" RV's. Campers need to be stocked with supplies, gas, food, hookups, sewage dumps. All those things require "touch"... contact of some sort somewhere along the line. Someone touching something and someone else coming along after them and touching it too.

When you enter into a campground, someone has to be working said campground to take your payment and info (not all campgrounds are available for prepayment online). Sell you firewood and/or refill your propane tanks. Offer maps and other campground info. Those same people will also have to go around checking on the campsites, cleaning the campsites, patrolling and controlling the campgrounds/campers (ie: partiers/drinkers that might get out of hand), emptying garbages, and be ready to handle any emergency situation (heart attack, injury, hikers getting lost in the woods, etc).

Someone's dog running up to someone else's dog to get a sniff and play. Someone's kid running up to someone's dog and petting it. Your kid screaming and crying because they want to play with that kid over there, but can't.

People using shared common grounds and facilities such as the campground office, propane tank refills, public washrooms and showers, water taps to refill water jugs, garbage receptacles, RV dump stations, hiking/walking/cycling paths, playgrounds structures, small little beach areas, common picnic areas and picnic tables.

More people out and about means more people at the gas stations on their way to said campgrounds, more people using public washrooms, more people at the stores buying their goods like propane/food, more people stopping for an ice cream cone, more people stopping at the rest stops along the highways and using the facilities, more people gathering at sight-seeing spots to take photos, more people on the highways means more chances for auto accidents/flat tires/breakdowns which would then require the services of police/ambulance/tow trucks.

In summary: more people.... everywhere. Touching stuff, using stuff, coming into close contact with stuff and other people. The domino effect of opening up a so-called 'simple little thing' like campgrounds and parks could actually prove to be a nightmare in the making.

And let's not forget the most important aspect of all this: By opening up campgrounds and parks, you're demanding that those employees/park rangers take great personal risk to themselves and their family members.... just so you can get out and have some "fun". In fact, you are demanding that a whole slew of people from different jobs put their (and their family's) lives at risk (police, gas station attendees, store clerks, EMT's, tow truck drivers, etc etc)... just so you can get out and have some "fun".

Sorry to be the barer of bad news everyone, but this summer has been cancelled. Go home and find something to do with yourselves.... at home.

#StayTheF***Home

 

[newyorkguy]

We're probably going to get to 120,000 deaths in less time than six months. Below is a chart from Worldometer. It shows the U.S had just over 80,000 deaths since March 31st. That's forty-four days. At the current rate we'll pass 100,000 next week sometime.

 

[acbytesla]

No such thing as "self contained" RV's. Campers need to be stocked with supplies, gas, food, hookups, sewage dumps. All those things require "touch"... contact of some sort somewhere along the line. Someone touching something and someone else coming along after them and touching it too.

When you enter into a campground, someone has to be working said campground to take your payment and info (not all campgrounds are available for prepayment online). Sell you firewood and/or refill your propane tanks. Offer maps and other campground info. Those same people will also have to go around checking on the campsites, cleaning the campsites, patrolling and controlling the campgrounds/campers (ie: partiers/drinkers that might get out of hand), emptying garbages, and be ready to handle any emergency situation (heart attack, injury, hikers getting lost in the woods, etc).

Someone's dog running up to someone else's dog to get a sniff and play. Someone's kid running up to someone's dog and petting it. Your kid screaming and crying because they want to play with that kid over there, but can't.

People using shared common grounds and facilities such as the campground office, propane tank refills, public washrooms and showers, water taps to refill water jugs, garbage receptacles, RV dump stations, hiking/walking/cycling paths, playgrounds structures, small little beach areas, common picnic areas and picnic tables.

More people out and about means more people at the gas stations on their way to said campgrounds, more people using public washrooms, more people at the stores buying their goods like propane/food, more people stopping for an ice cream cone, more people stopping at the rest stops along the highways and using the facilities, more people gathering at sight-seeing spots to take photos, more people on the highways means more chances for auto accidents/flat tires/breakdowns which would then require the services of police/ambulance/tow trucks.

In summary: more people.... everywhere. Touching stuff, using stuff, coming into close contact with stuff and other people. The domino effect of opening up a so-called 'simple little thing' like campgrounds and parks could actually prove to be a nightmare in the making.

And let's not forget the most important aspect of all this: By opening up campgrounds and parks, you're demanding that those employees/park rangers take great personal risk to themselves and their family members.... just so you can get out and have some "fun". In fact, you are demanding that a whole slew of people from different jobs put their (and their family's) lives at risk (police, gas station attendees, store clerks, EMT's, tow truck drivers, etc etc)... just so you can get out and have some "fun".

Sorry to be the barer of bad news everyone, but this summer has been cancelled. Go home and find something to do with yourselves.... at home.

#StayTheF***Home

No more than at your home.

As for personal risk to rangers, there really is very little. Far less than the clerks at your local grocery stores. Rangers jobs at the parks more than anything is maintenance and providing minimal security.

Someone takes my payment at the grocery store and helps at the gas station and I know of no campgrounds in Washington State, California or Oregon that sell propane which you can and still buy almost everywhere. If I can stay 6 feet away from the clerk at the mini-mart I sure as hell can stay away from the neighbor or the volunteer at the campground.

I still go to Home Depot, Lowes and countless other places and have far more interaction with employees than I ever have at campgrounds and I do a lot of camping. In both Oregon and Washington, I can pay online, pay a ranger on duty or fill out a registration and drop the payment in a secure box. The dog scenario can happen in your own neighborhood.

And as I said earlier, there is easily a million people who RV full time. Those campgrounds are their homes.

 

[acbytesla]

We're probably going to get to 120,000 deaths in less time than six months. Below is a chart from Worldometer. It shows the U.S had just over 80,000 deaths since March 31st. That's forty-four days. At the current rate we'll pass 100,000 next week sometime.

The Trump Administration is trying to get the CDC to fudge the numbers downward when in fact their estimates are already certainly lower than the reality. By the White House's own model, it looks as if we will hit 150,000 deaths in September.

 

[Aridas]

It seems to me that almost all the politicians both Democrat and Republican are blowing this. Everyone should be focused on how we can open as many businesses as we can and still be as safe. Not this lets just reopen on this date.

Not sure where you're getting your information? There's plenty of that going on all around. It's the cases where it's pretty much "let's just reopen for political reasons on this date" that are generally getting real flak. Or cases like Georgia when first stage reopening looks like it was a lot more about pushing a bunch of people off of unemployment rather than actually getting things running again, given the nature of the actual businesses that were being allowed to reopen.

It can't be worse than no business at all.

And where, exactly, is there no business at all? Even discounting all the supposedly "essential" businesses, there's a heck of a lot of working from home going on.

Would it be nice to have more up and running safely? Sure. As one of the "essential" workers who really, really shouldn't be "essential," though, I can't say that I'm feeling all that safe to work.

 

[acbytesla]

Not sure where you're getting your information? There's plenty of that going on all around. It's the cases where it's pretty much "let's just reopen for political reasons on this date" that are generally getting real flak. Or cases like Georgia when first stage reopening looks like it was a lot more about pushing a bunch of people off of unemployment rather than actually getting things running again, given the nature of the actual businesses that were being allowed to reopen.

And where, exactly, is there no business at all? Even discounting all the supposedly "essential" businesses, there's a heck of a lot of working from home going on.

Would it be nice to have more up and running safely? Sure. As one of the "essential" workers who really, really shouldn't be "essential," though, I can't say that I'm feeling all that safe to work.

I'm sure you're right but I don't think they aren't necessarily getting that message across to the public.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Trump Administration is trying to get the CDC to fudge the numbers downward when in fact their estimates are already certainly lower than the reality. By the White House's own model, it looks as if we will hit 150,000 deaths in September.

I'm going to guess sooner. Just a hunch.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Echoes of the Broad Street pump handle: Can't get the officials to ban use of the contaminated water source, take the pump handle off.

NPR: Wisconsin Supreme Court Overturns The State's Stay-At-Home Orders
By a vote of 4 to 3, conservative justices blocked the Governor's stay at home orders. The conservative members of the legislature challenged the Governor's orders.

The legal challenge was brought against Andrea Palm, the Wisconsin Department of Health Services secretary, and other health officials by Republican state lawmakers, who have been pushing to relax restrictions and take a more regional approach for stay-at-home orders over the last weeks, as Wisconsin Public Radio reported.

According to the ruling, Palm broke state law when she issued an April 16 "Safer at Home" order that prohibited Wisconsin residents from leaving their homes unless it was essential.

That order was ruled to be "unlawful, invalid, and unenforceable."

But most (all) states give some broad powers to county and/or state public health officials to order things like quarantines. WA State does. So they took the pump handle off.

Conway and public health officials there immediately issued local stay-at-home orders after the Supreme Court ruling came down.