2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

[Delphic Oracle]

I'll vote for Bernie if he's the candidate. I'll vote for Warren if she's the candidate. I'll vote for Biden if he's the candidate. If they dig up Franklin Roosevelt and run the campaign Weekend at Bernie's style I'll vote for the corpse of Franklin Roosevelt.



Spare me the "You're not on my side unless you're trying to beat me in a who can be the farthest on the Left" speech.

Shove those words somewhere else, they aren't mine, they don't belong to me.

Fabricated insults and presenting a caricature of a fringe minority as typical of Sanders supporters is not engaging honestly.

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[Venom]

No me and dudalb have separate files in our brains for "My favorite candidate" and "candidate with an actual chance of winning."

It's not our fault if other people don't.

Bernie supporters, hell, Bernie Bros if we wanna go there, aren't rooting for a candidate in the single digits mind you. We're not Gabbard or Yang supporters.

He's literally neck and neck with Biden nationwide and leading in Iowa and first or second in the first few states of the primaries.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

No me and dudalb just have separate files in our brains for "My favorite candidate" and "candidate with an actual chance of winning."

It's not our fault if other people don't.

Do we need to trot out the head-to-head polling numbers that centrists pretend don't exist again?

Why does saying "many of our leading candidates can beat Trump, though I have my favorite" seem to not be an option?

Why is it "only my favorite can win at all."

 

[Sideroxylon]

Everything is hyperbole if you're a pedant. I'm not going to speak in machine code at you. Don't like it, I know you know how to use the ignore button.

Answer the question. How did not being progressive enough lose Hillary states that aren't overly progressive?

This mythology is inane.

In 2016 Bernie Sanders got ~112,000 popular votes and recieved one Electoral Vote from an Unfaithful Elector.

This puts his popular vote count far, far below Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, and Darrel Castle and his Electoral Votes equal to John Kaisch, Ron Paul, a third of Colin Powell who wasn't even running, and Faith Spotted Eagle.

That's not the narrative of a bunch of pissed over voters in Wisconsin mad that Hillary wasn't progressive enough who would have flocked to Bernie.

We're doomed. We're handing Trump a silver platter for 2020 because nobody can look at the landscape and come to any conclusion beyond "We have to make the people already on our side happier! No whatever you do don't do anything to get anyone new in the boat, just keep the people in the vote happy at all cost!"

If you cannot win an election with a candidate who has been giving clear policy messages of delivering for the working class versus Trump (who here needs no contrasting description) you are ******. And it will largely be down to the dishonest framing that I am harping on about (aka “screeching leave Sanders alone”). His policies are ones that in the clear light of day are easy to embrace for working people. But look at the ******** way you framed healthcare in this thread. ******* stop that ****.

 

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

Bingo. When I worked for an oncology practice patients would come in confident in their wonderful, wonderful insurance that would cover 80% of the costs-- 80%, that's a lot!

Then they find out their total cost for their treatment is $400,000. So they only owed us $80,000. Will that be cash or check? Oh, you don't have $80K lying around? I guess you can sell your house. Don't own a house? Did you hope to retire, or send kids to college? Ha, ha, that was a cute dream but it's over now.

Wouldn't the out of pocket max limit that? I think it's around $8,100 this year. When I had my bike accident, the bill was over $150K, but I "only" had to pay the $6,350 max. I'm not saying that is chump change, but the hospital readily setup a long term payment plan with no issues.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Shove those words somewhere else, they aren't mine, they don't belong to me.

Fabricated insults and presenting a caricature of a fringe minority as typical of Sanders supporters is not engaging honestly.

This isn't like dealing with politics, this is like dealing with fanboys. I feel like I just said I liked/didn't like the new Star Wars film.

Jesus I get less crap from the Trumpers when I literally call Trump a mentally challenged wanna be dictator.

I even said I'll vote for your boy if it comes to that. What more do you goddamn want?

 

[JoeMorgue]

If you cannot win an election with a candidate who has been giving clear policy messages of delivering for the working class versus Trump (who here needs no contrasting description) you are ******. And it will largely be down to the dishonest framing that I am harping on about (aka “screeching leave Sanders alone”). His policies are ones that in the clear light of day are easy to embrace for working people. But look at the ******** way you framed healthcare in this thread. ******* stop that ****.

"I like Bernie Sanders so I can't understand why anyone else doesn't." Got it.

I can add some swear-astericks if it will help.

 

[Sideroxylon]

"I like Bernie Sanders so I can't understand why anyone else doesn't." Got it.

I can add some swear-astericks if it will help.

Now wondering if this is just pure dishonesty or head up your bum?

 

[JoeMorgue]

You want Bernie to win more then want Trump to lose.

I want Trump to lose far more then I care what Democrat beats him.

Reword that into whatever works for you. I'll still sleep tonight.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And yeah the last page is really not selling the "Bernie Bros aren't just the political equivalent to fanboys" argument.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

This isn't like dealing with politics, this is like dealing with fanboys. I feel like I just said I liked/didn't like the new Star Wars film.



Jesus I get less crap from the Trumpers when I literally call Trump a mentally challenged wanna be dictator.



I even said I'll vote for your boy if it comes to that. What more do you goddamn want?

Less demeaning and presumption of others for have having differences is a start.

He's not "my boy." Comparisons to Trump supporters or star wars fans are really cute, too.

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[Sideroxylon]

You want Bernie to win more then want Trump to lose.

I want Trump to lose far more then I care what Democrat beats him.

Reword that into whatever works for you. I'll still sleep tonight.

I have here expressed a want for honest framing of Sanders and a focus on his policies. The ******** is ramping up but lets not propagate it here, a sceptic’s forum.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I have here expressed a want for honest framing of Sanders and a focus on his policies. The ******** is ramping up but lets not propagate it here, a sceptic’s forum.

Don't get me wrong I respect your passion, I just think you aren't tempering it with realism.

Hillary lost moderate, blue collar, battleground states in 2016. She didn't lose them because she wasn't Progressive enough.

Sander isn't going to win Wisconsin if Hillary didn't.

Bernie beating Trump would make for a better story then Trump being beat by a... piece of white bread that drives a beige Volvo if it were a politician.

But I want a win in 2020, not have a good story to tell. I want the Rocky II ending, not the Rocky ending.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Also a good chunk of times I see the "star wars fanboys" type scenario its:

Fan: I liked it, my kids were entertained, it was fun.

Critic: it is **** and only doo-doo heads like it.

Fan: **** you!

Critic: omg butt-hurt fanbois all the same! I just expressed my opinion. Why do you hate hearing the truth?!

Like people are so unaware of the hostility they themselves started.



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[Sideroxylon]

Less demeaning and presumption of others for have having differences is a start.

He's not "my boy." Comparisons to Trump supporters or star wars fans are really cute, too.

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It’s framing, a construction of perceptions about who Sanders is that will be repeated and become who he is in the minds of many when they come to cast their votes.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Don't get me wrong I respect your passion, I just think you aren't tempering it with realism.

Hillary lost moderate, blue collar, battleground states in 2016. She didn't lose them because she wasn't Progressive enough.

Sander isn't going to win Wisconsin if Hillary didn't.

Bernie beating Trump would make for a better story then Trump being beat by a... piece of white bread that drives a beige Volvo if it were a politician.

But I want a win in 2020, not have a good story to tell. I want the Rocky II ending, not the Rocky ending.

The strategy, as articulated by Schumer was to trade in blue collar support for "moderate conservatives" in the suburbs in all the states that proved critical.

All these other explanations latched onto came from the same architects of that plan.

It's called an "ego defense mechanism."

They ****** the dog and then pointed fingers every which way.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

It’s framing, a construction of perceptions about who Sanders is that will be repeated and become who he is in the minds of many when they come to cast their votes.

Just like they will do with any candidate we nominate...

Give me the unique reasons.

Without more insults, preferably.

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[theprestige]

Also a good chunk of times I see the "star wars fanboys" type scenario its:

Fan: I liked it, my kids were entertained, it was fun.

Critic: it is **** and only doo-doo heads like it.

Fan: **** you!

Critic: omg butt-hurt fanbois all the same! I just expressed my opinion. Why do you hate hearing the truth?!

Like people are so unaware of the hostility they themselves started.

Also another good chunk of times it's:

Critic: It has some serious problems and is actually a pretty garbage movie.

Fan: **** you! I liked it! You're just an incel!

 

[The Shrike]

Hillary lost moderate, blue collar, battleground states in 2016. She didn't lose them because she wasn't Progressive enough.

Hillary lost because tens of millions of irrational people have hated her for decades. Her candidacy carried a lot more baggage than just where she sits on the Progressive-o-meter.

Were she more progressive it's likely that liberal/progressive voter turnout would've been higher. Were she not Hillary Clinton it's likely that liberal/progressive voter turnout would've been higher. Were she not Hillary Clinton, I'd wager that the "Obama/Trump" voter phenomenon would not have occurred.

Sander isn't going to win Wisconsin if Hillary didn't.

I'm not so sure. So much of the Trump vote was people just trying to do something different, i.e., to shake up Washington. Sanders fit that bill for a lot of people. The youth vote would've been tremendous. In the debates Sanders would not have had to control his temper the way Clinton thought she had to.

It's Monday-morning quarterbacking, but I don't buy for a moment the narrative that Sanders couldn't have beaten Trump.

I want the Rocky II ending, not the Rocky ending.

I'm with you here, though. Any non-criminal with a pulse running in opposition to the nightmare in office right now has my full support.

 

[Venom]

Don't get me wrong I respect your passion, I just think you aren't tempering it with realism.

Hillary lost moderate, blue collar, battleground states in 2016. She didn't lose them because she wasn't Progressive enough.

Sander isn't going to win Wisconsin if Hillary didn't.

Sanders beat Clinton by 13 points in Wisconsin.
Recently he's been endorsed by Mark Pocan of Wisconsin's 2nd Congressional district.

Why just outright dismiss his chances against Trump?