2020 Democratic Candidates Tracker Part III

[JoeMorgue]

What I fear is that many Bernie supporters will stay home and pout if he doesn't win the nomination.

I love how people say this and everyone just lets it go but if I suggest that catering to the extreme Left Twitter/Tumblr crowd is going to cause people to stay home all of a sudden I have to empirically prove it and have a 50 page Power Point presentation ready with "how I would fix it."

Unless the rust-belt blue states that lost the Democrats the election in 2016 have turned into beacons of Progressive Extremism and nobody told me I think hand wringing over losing a few Bernie Bros at the expense of actually making gains among moderates is politically suicidal.

The Dems are going to win 2020 by making gains in places they didn't win in 2016, not in making the places they won (i.e. the liberal, progressive urban areas, West Coast, New England, etc) like them more.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Ok, most Sanders supporters said they would either definitely or possibly vote for another Candidate if Sanders loses the nomination. The question is, how to the supporters of the other Candidates feel? Are there Biden Buddies who won't vote democrat if he loses? Are there many Warren Warriors who demand "Liz or bust"? Do Yang Yahoos exist that won't vote democrat if someone else is nominated?



From your article:



87 percent of former vice president Joe Biden's supporters said yes to voting for whoever wins the nomination, 9 percent it depends on the winning candidate, and 5 percent said no to anyone that is not Biden. And 90 percent of Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren's supporters said they would vote for whoever is the nominee, while the remaining 10 percent said it depended on who won the nomination.



So, only half of the Bernie Bros care enough about Democratic or left-wing causes to say "Yeah, I'll still vote democrat regardless". The rest say "Bernie or bust" (at best) or "Maybe, but if I don't like the alternative I'll be happy to let Stubby McBonespurs run the country another 4 years". That ain't a rational way to look at things. On the other hand, almost all (~90%) of Warren's or Biden's supporters are rational enough to say "If my candidate loses its still best for the country to defeat Trump".



So you want Sander's "medicare for all program". You want his "Free schooling". If you don't get it, is it really the smart thing to do to say "screw it, I'm not getting medicare for all so I'm happy to see millions of people lose their Obamacare".

Congratulations on doing exactly what I pointed out was manipulative presentation (how groups of respondents are bundled).

Your "free stuff" rant presumes a lot about me, plus its the same regressive "free stuff" meme it's always been.

Shove your made up words someplace else, k?

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[dudalb]

Ironic that the Bernie Bros here seem to confirm every negative opinion people have about them.
And I love the way they hand wave away any discussion of Bernie's electability by cherry picking some poles.
Nomnating Bernie will hand the White House to Trump for another 4 years, I have yet to see any convincing argument to the contrary;I don't consider playing games and cherry picking poll numbers to be convincing.

 

[Segnosaur]

Clinton lost thr 2008 nomination race to Obama. She accepted the loss and supported the parties candidate. Her supporters did the same.

Except as many as 28% of Clinton supporters polled said they were going to support McCain when she conceded. Granted, that number went to down significantly by that November, but they made a hell of a lot of noise leading up to the election.

Yes, its true, there were some Clinton supporters who voted for McCain instead of Obama. (Heck, there may have even been MORE of them than Bernie Bros.)

But here's the thing...while there may have been policy differences between Obama and McCain, as Obama once said "I never doubted he could do the job" (paraphrased). And while McCain may have been "right wing", he also defended Obama against racist attacks.

Compare that to Trump, who not only has significant policy differences between himself and Democratic candidates, has also illustrated his complete unsuitability for the job (e.g. his racism, his lying, his inability to listen to advisers and comprehend basic information.)

A Clinton voter could switch to McCain and still end up with a competent president. A Sanders voter could not switch to Trump (or alternatively a 3rd party candidate) and end up with a competent president.

In either case, that is insane. None of the Republican candidates came anywhere close to the Democratic runners up in terms of policy or platform.

Yes, differences exist between Democratic and Republican politicians. But for a potential swing voter, the issue isn't "How close are the 2 parties to each other" but "how close are the 2 parties to my own views".

Lets say you had a voter who was pro-abortion but also pro-NRA. Wanted tax cuts but also stronger environmental regulations. They don't fit exactly in either party, but could go either Democrat or Republican and still find something they like.

 

[dudalb]

I love how people say this and everyone just lets it go but if I suggest that catering to the extreme Left Twitter/Tumblr crowd is going to cause people to stay home all of a sudden I have to empirically prove it and have a 50 page Power Point presentation ready with "how I would fix it."

Unless the rust-belt blue states that lost the Democrats the election in 2016 have turned into beacons of Progressive Extremism and nobody told me I think hand wringing over losing a few Bernie Bros at the expense of actually making gains among moderates is politically suicidal.

The Dems are going to win 2020 by making gains in places they didn't win in 2016, not in making the places they won (i.e. the liberal, progressive urban areas, West Coast, New England, etc) like them more.

A basic fact the Bernie Bros like to ignore.
They are, frankly, beleivers in the lost tribe school of politics; that there is some vast hidden pool of left wing voters who will come out at the right candidate.

 

[dudalb]

I think the Dems should have one goal in mindefeating Trump Everything else should be a distant second.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Ironic that the Bernie Bros here seem to confirm every negative opinion people have about them.

And I love the way they hand wave away any discussion of Bernie's electability by cherry picking some poles.

Nomnating Bernie will hand the White House to Trump for another 4 years, I have yet to see any convincing argument to the contrary;I don't consider playing games and cherry picking poll numbers to be convincing.

Who are the Bernie Bros here?

Name names.

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[Segnosaur]

Congratulations on doing exactly what I pointed out was manipulative presentation (how groups of respondents are bundled).

I pointed out how, according to a poll you provided, a much higher portion of Sanders supporters either won't vote democrat at all, or might not depending on the candidate. How exactly is that 'manipulation'?

Your "free stuff" rant presumes a lot about me, plus its the same regressive "free stuff" meme it's always been.

Actually my 'You want...' was not meant to be directed at your own preferences. I have no idea if you are a 'Bernie bro', nor do I know what policies you prefer. It was meant to be a general statement on a 'typical' supporter and the reasons they might be voting for Sanders in the first place.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

I think the Dems should have one goal in mindefeating Trump Everything else should be a distant second.

Well, then this is not a good time to be exposing the Bidens' corruption in the Senate. Just saying....

Also, Bernie has no chance against Trump and it is looking more and more likely that he will get the nomination if Biden falls by the wayside. I don't understand what the Democrats are doing at all, but I'm happy they're doing it.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I love how people say this and everyone just lets it go but if I suggest that catering to the extreme Left Twitter/Tumblr crowd is going to cause people to stay home all of a sudden I have to empirically prove it and have a 50 page Power Point presentation ready with "how I would fix it."

Unless the rust-belt blue states that lost the Democrats the election in 2016 have turned into beacons of Progressive Extremism and nobody told me I think hand wringing over losing a few Bernie Bros at the expense of actually making gains among moderates is politically suicidal.

The Dems are going to win 2020 by making gains in places they didn't win in 2016, not in making the places they won (i.e. the liberal, progressive urban areas, West Coast, New England, etc) like them more.

Last time it was cigar lounges and dancing girls. You cannot give up with these ridiculous straw men/hyperbole.

We are back to the absurd framing of healthcare, living wages, and winding back the obscene wealth gap. This is not extremism. These are kitchen table issues for working people.

Yes, it is an interesting question how he might win but it is lost in your blustering reactionary approach.

 

[Kestrel]

So you want Sander's "medicare for all program". You want his "Free schooling". If you don't get it, is it really the smart thing to do to say "screw it, I'm not getting medicare for all so I'm happy to see millions of people lose their Obamacare".

I read a lot of social media posts from those who believe the death of Obamacare will lead to Medicare for All by some mysterious process.

They seem to forget that Congress would have to pass a complex bill to create Medicare for All. The same process that created Obamacare and prevented Trump from repealing and replacing Obamacare by decree.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Last time it was cigar lounges and dancing girls. You cannot give up with these ridiculous straw men/hyperbole.

We are back to the absurd framing of healthcare, living wages, and winding back the obscene wealth gap. Kitchen table issues for working people.

Yes, it is an interesting question how he might win but it is lost in your blustering reactionary approach.

Okay seriously it's sarcasm/joking exaggerations. It's not a new concept I just invented and introduced to discussions and didn't tell anyone.

Hillary lost the election because she lost the "Blue Wall" states in the Rust Belt. Is it your assertion that she lost them because she wasn't progressive enough? If not I fail to see your point other then a screeching "Leave Bernie alone!"

I'm capable of understanding that what I want isn't necessarily what potential voters want. I can't help it if you can't.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Okay seriously it's sarcasm/joking exaggerations. It's not a new concept I just invented and introduced to discussions and didn't tell anyone.

Hillary lost the election because she lost the "Blue Wall" states in the Rust Belt. Is it your assertion that she lost them because she wasn't progressive enough? If not I fail to see your point other then a screeching "Leave Bernie alone!"

You cannot help yourself can you. This is a textbook strawman of what I have been saying.

 

[dudalb]

Last time it was cigar lounges and dancing girls. You cannot give up with these ridiculous straw men/hyperbole.

We are back to the absurd framing of healthcare, living wages, and winding back the obscene wealth gap. This is not extremism. These are kitchen table issues for working people.

Yes, it is an interesting question how he might win but it is lost in your blustering reactionary approach.

Anybody who is not as far to the left as you is a reactionary.
Do you have any idea how much you sound like a Bizarro mirror image of a Trump supporter?

 

[Sideroxylon]

Anybody who is not as far to the left as you is a reactionary.
Do you have any idea how much you sound like a Bizarro mirror image of a Trump supporter?

Go back and look, ponder charitably in context. I am here calling reactionary to absurd knee-jerk framings. Like yours too, reactionary.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'm getting the feeling like all that "party unity" and "don't attack each other" stuff from centrists is pure self-serving hogwash.

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[JoeMorgue]

You cannot help yourself can you. This is a textbook strawman of what I have been saying.

Everything is hyperbole if you're a pedant. I'm not going to speak in machine code at you. Don't like it, I know you know how to use the ignore button.

Answer the question. How did not being progressive enough lose Hillary states that aren't overly progressive?

This mythology is inane.

In 2016 Bernie Sanders got ~112,000 popular votes and recieved one Electoral Vote from an Unfaithful Elector.

This puts his popular vote count far, far below Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Evan McMullin, and Darrel Castle and his Electoral Votes equal to John Kaisch, Ron Paul, a third of Colin Powell who wasn't even running, and Faith Spotted Eagle.

That's not the narrative of a bunch of pissed over voters in Wisconsin mad that Hillary wasn't progressive enough who would have flocked to Bernie.

We're doomed. We're handing Trump a silver platter for 2020 because nobody can look at the landscape and come to any conclusion beyond "We have to make the people already on our side happier! No whatever you do don't do anything to get anyone new in the boat, just keep the people in the vote happy at all cost!"

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm getting the feeling like all that "party unity" and "don't attack each other" stuff from centrists is pure self-serving hogwash.

I'll vote for Bernie if he's the candidate. I'll vote for Warren if she's the candidate. I'll vote for Biden if he's the candidate. If they dig up Franklin Roosevelt and run the campaign Weekend at Bernie's style I'll vote for the corpse of Franklin Roosevelt.

Spare me the "You're not on my side unless you're trying to beat me in a who can be the farthest on the Left" speech.

 

[Venom]

Who are the Bernie Bros here?

Name names.

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It's come to this.

Anyone who is enthusiastic about Sanders or merely favors him over the rest is a "Bernie Bro". What was once reserved for the ardent BernieorBust crowd is applied to all his supporters.

There's only one "Bernie Bro" I'm aware of in the subforum but he's not been active here.

But dudalb has an insatiable need to paint everyone to the right or left of him as the most extreme of the crop, I dunno why.

 

[JoeMorgue]

No me and dudalb just have separate files in our brains for "My favorite candidate" and "candidate with an actual chance of winning."

It's not our fault if other people don't.