Who created al Qaeda?

[Orphia Nay]

Hi Orphia. Long time no see.

For those of us with cynical memories the "go start your own thread" ploy is not new. On one infamous low point occasion it was deployed against an alleged truther who had the temerity to argue against the prevailing wisdom. He was right.

Cheers, ozeco41.

I understand the pride we debunkers take in "knowing more" than the average person.

I'm aware we have 9/11 regulars who served in the military.

I supported "The War on Terror" and defended Bush and Cheney on certain clichés criticised by liberals ("Mission Accomplished" (actually deposing Saddam), "Unknown Unknowns" (correct, and used that again myself the other day).

I supported the use of firearms in a situation when civilians are being held captive and harmed by "terrorists" who are shooting those trying to rescue the civilians.

Now I'm seen as some sort of radical leftie feminist.

I've met "Freedom Fighters" in Kashmir who trained in Pakistan, and I support the people there, and I have friends in India who think Muslims are evil, murdering animals. I made friends with a Muslim in Melbourne two months ago who visits Bali to give women chickens or sewing machines to start a business to support themselves, and who is building a school for Eritrean refugees in South Sudan.

I know plenty about ownership of guns in the Middle East, Africa, and Central Asia.

Saying "9/11 was down to only the hijackers and OBL in The Base in Afghanistan" perhaps reflects conflicting feelings of guilt about US/coalition responsibility towards civilians.

It's like saying "all US Army servicemen were shooting civilians from a helicopter in Iraq and were created by Bush".

We're not kids any more, playing good guys and bad guys.

If 9/11 CT forum regulars don't get out into the threads in other sub-forums about climate, finance, social media, politics, they are missing out on "knowing more" than the average person and not getting a sense of how global the actual worldview now is, and how individuals need to be treated as individuals who are affected by issues globally.

 

[bknight]

Cheers, ozeco41.

I understand the pride we debunkers take in "knowing more" than the average person.

<snip>

So just exactly are you attempting to debunk?

 

[Allen773]

Yeah, I'm not sure what your issues with the responses in this thread are. Things are complicated, yes. But I don't know if any of us are willing to write a thousand page thesis on the multifaceted origins of al-Qaeda. Obviously there have been many thousands (millions?) of pages of books, articles, and forum posts about al-Qaeda and its history and the social and historical context in which it was created.

The title of the thread is "Who created al-Qaeda?," not "A Short History of Nearly Everything (About Al-Qaeda, or even vaguely related)." Just because we're not responding as much to the latter in this thread about the former doesn't mean we aren't interested in the latter.

 

[Axxman300]

Hahaha. Hijack. I see what you did there. Very clever.

Nobody move, we have some threads.

 

[Axxman300]

Saying "9/11 was down to only the hijackers and OBL in The Base in Afghanistan" perhaps reflects conflicting feelings of guilt about US/coalition responsibility towards civilians.

It's like saying "all US Army servicemen were shooting civilians from a helicopter in Iraq and were created by Bush".

We're not kids any more, playing good guys and bad guys.

Fine, you want to play? Fine.

You're wrong. Al Qaeda, the version that pulled off the attacks on 9-11, had no interest in helping any oppressed Muslims. Their STATED intentions were to drive the US from the Middle East with hopes of overthrowing the Saudi government and taking control of Mecca, you know, because they're real Muslims. The fact that they would also control the Saudi oil fields would just be Allah's will.

Before the attack Al Qaeda had split between those who wished to focus on the Middle East and bin Laden and KSM's vision of attacking the US. Bin Laden didn't count on the kind of unrelenting military response that resulted. And although he claimed to be a true jihadist he ran away into Pakistan instead of fighting to the death with the men he left behind at Tora Bora to be shredded by our airstrikes. Twelve years later he didn't fire a shot when the SEAL's landed and crash landed in his backyard.

Bin Laden was just another rich Arab who talked a good game but was more than happy to let others do the fighting and dying for him.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Fine, you want to play? Fine.

You're wrong. Al Qaeda, the version that pulled off the attacks on 9-11, had no interest in helping any oppressed Muslims. Their STATED intentions were to drive the US from the Middle East with hopes of overthrowing the Saudi government and taking control of Mecca, you know, because they're real Muslims. The fact that they would also control the Saudi oil fields would just be Allah's will.

Before the attack Al Qaeda had split between those who wished to focus on the Middle East and bin Laden and KSM's vision of attacking the US. Bin Laden didn't count on the kind of unrelenting military response that resulted. And although he claimed to be a true jihadist he ran away into Pakistan instead of fighting to the death with the men he left behind at Tora Bora to be shredded by our airstrikes. Twelve years later he didn't fire a shot when the SEAL's landed and crash landed in his backyard.

Bin Laden was just another rich Arab who talked a good game but was more than happy to let others do the fighting and dying for him.

I said this is not a game. We are not “playing”.

I can see the pride you have in the US military.

They wanted to do good.

Osama Bin Laden wanted to do good.

His “Letter to America”, 2002:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver


A tiny bit so as not to overwhelm you:

“(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.”

 

[Axxman300]

“(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

Name one Al Qaeda attack on Israel.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.”

In Somalia it was the other way around and Al Qaeda didn't feed anyone.

Russia doesn't need or want our support, plus our options are limited in how we deal with them. A nuclear war (and that's how an armed conflict with Russia and the US ends) won't just go down within our respective borders so it's in the interest in the continuation of the human race to pick that battle carefully if it ever comes. This is why we didn't counter the Russians in Georgia. This is why we took forever to get into Syria and why we didn't attack Jihadi staging points on Syria during the Iraq War.

Should point out that the Chechen extremists started that conflict AND HAD WON but they couldn't leave well enough alone and staged attacks and bombings inside Russia forcing a response. Atrocities are standard operating procedure for the Russian military. Poking the bear as it were.

Al Qaeda isn't fighting in Kashmir.

"Jewish Aggression"...not Israeli aggression...good thing he was shot thirty times. We went into with a multinational peace keeping force.

Bin Laden presumes to speak for all Arabs and Muslims, which is blasphemy and the kind of arrogance common with millionaire activists.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Name one Al Qaeda attack on Israel.

Odd question.

USA supports and props up Israel.

In Somalia it was the other way around and Al Qaeda didn't feed anyone.

Russia doesn't need or want our support, plus our options are limited in how we deal with them. A nuclear war (and that's how an armed conflict with Russia and the US ends) won't just go down within our respective borders so it's in the interest in the continuation of the human race to pick that battle carefully if it ever comes. This is why we didn't counter the Russians in Georgia. This is why we took forever to get into Syria and why we didn't attack Jihadi staging points on Syria during the Iraq War.

Should point out that the Chechen extremists started that conflict AND HAD WON but they couldn't leave well enough alone and staged attacks and bombings inside Russia forcing a response. Atrocities are standard operating procedure for the Russian military. Poking the bear as it were.

Al Qaeda isn't fighting in Kashmir.

"Jewish Aggression"...not Israeli aggression...good thing he was shot thirty times. We went into with a multinational peace keeping force.

Bin Laden presumes to speak for all Arabs and Muslims, which is blasphemy and the kind of arrogance common with millionaire activists.

This is all rather muddled, and is a form of adjustment.

We can't change the past.

Muslims WERE attacked, and are still attacked.

The USA still seems to have some sort of maladjusted relationship with Russia.

Is it bad or isn't it bad to do business with Russia to help its people gain access to better living standards (e.g. energy)?

Are Biden/Trump etc all evil "like Muslims/terrorists" and enemies of freedom?

 

[Axxman300]

Odd question.

USA supports and props up Israel.

Many countries support Israel. More to the point, no country - including the US - has ever intervened to help Israel in any of the wars against it. We sell them weapons and weapon technology but France does too (they don't buy from Germany which is their loss) and they have a robust small arms industry.

More to the point, if I have a problem with someone I can't resolve peacefully I punch them in the mouth. I don't walk into their place of employment and beat up their coworkers.

That would be stupid, ineffective, and make me an a-hole.

We can't change the past.

Muslims WERE attacked, and are still attacked.

And...?

Who killed all of those Muslims in Syria over the past 9 years? Is Assad a secret Jew? Is he a CIA/Mossad puppet? ISIS/ISIL are an Islamic organization yet they murder who? What religious faith practiced by all of the victims of the Taliban before we invaded? Al Qaeda-in-Iraq murdered 300,000 Muslims...or do you not count Shiites as true Muslims? The Saudi are Muslim [does a quick Wikipedia check* yup, Muslim] and they've been fighting Houthi along their southern border and not being very nice about it.

It seems like the only people bothered by Muslims murdering each other wholesale is the United States. Maybe if we stayed out of it there'd be fewer Muslims. Maybe this is a secret CIA plot to save Islam to keep the military industrial complex running.

The USA still seems to have some sort of maladjusted relationship with Russia.

Is it bad or isn't it bad to do business with Russia to help its people gain access to better living standards (e.g. energy)?

We can't change history but we can study it.

After the fall of the Soviet Union American companies set up shop in Russia. US oil companies helped modernize the Russian production only to be kicked out by Putin.

After the fall of the Soviet Union we were happy to give peace a chance. The Russians are now trying to undermine our democracy as a result.

Are Biden/Trump etc all evil "like Muslims/terrorists" and enemies of freedom?

Biden and Trump are two very different men.

Biden is a career scumbag politician.

Trump is a career real estate conman.

Biden exists only because of freedom. Trump would be Stalin if the Constitution didn't stand in his way.

 

[JSanderO]

He's not smart enough to be anyone but his dumb self.

 

[Allen773]

The words of Osama bin Laden's son Omar, from the book Growing Up Bin Laden, which he co-authored with his mother (and Osama's first wife) Najwa (note that it was published in 2009, when Osama was still alive):

A weird wail, followed by an excited voice, woke me from a deep sleep. I was at my grandmother’s home in Jeddah when my uncle came crashing into my room, his voice high, his words confusing. “Look what my brother has done! Look what my brother has done! He has ruined all our lives! He has destroyed us!”

He continued to shout, “Come quickly! Come and see what my brother has done! See what your father has done!” I dressed hurriedly and followed him into a room with a television screen. I saw flames belching from tall buildings. I had no idea what I was looking at.

I knew soon enough, however: America was under a serious attack.

After seeing the New York towers, I called my mother, to learn that she was watching the television from Syria. But she was too distraught to have a normal conversation. The phone call was brief.

The members of the huge bin Laden family reacted in the same way as my mother. Everyone shut down. No one spoke of the incident. My uncle never again addressed the possibility that my father was behind the attacks. My grandmother refused to consider the idea that her son had anything to do with the burning buildings. I, too, fed my own uncertainties with a million reasons why he could not have done this terrible deed. I did not want my father to be the one responsible.

Only much later, when he took personal credit for the attacks, did I know I must give up the luxury of doubt. That was the moment to set aside the dream that I had indulged, feverishly hoping that the world was wrong and it was not my father who brought about that horrible day. After hearing an audiotape of my father’s own words taking credit for the attacks, I faced the reality that he was the perpetrator behind the events of September 11, 2001. This knowledge drives me into the blackest hole.

During these years of loss and sorrow, I have had to reconcile myself to the truth about my father, Osama bin Laden. I know now that since the first day of the first battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan, my father has been killing other humans. He admitted as much to me, back in those days when I was his tea boy in Afghanistan. I often wonder if my father has killed so many times that the act of killing no longer brings him pleasure or pain.

I am nothing like my father. While he prays for war, I pray for peace. And now we go our separate ways, each believing that we are right.

My father has made his choice, and I have made mine. I am, at last, my own man. I can live with that.

 

[Axxman300]

He's not smart enough to be anyone but his dumb self.

And yet he's President of the United States AND were the election held tomorrow he gets re-elected. He is the face of our Post-9/11 insanity.

 

[theprestige]

And yet he's President of the United States AND were the election held tomorrow he gets re-elected. He is the face of our Post-9/11 insanity.

I wonder if Bin Laden died thinking he had won.

 

[JSanderO]

And yet he's President of the United States AND were the election held tomorrow he gets re-elected. He is the face of our Post-9/11 insanity.

No he would not be re elected... his con has been exposed.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I wonder if Bin Laden died thinking he had won.

Indeed.

It does look that way now if we look at many Arab and Asian nations compared to the USA, and at the way most Americans speak of their fellow Americans.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Backing up a step to note that everyone tacitly agreed with the fact that Bin Laden did, in fact, plan and implement the 9/11 attacks to protest, highlight, and avenge the attacks on Muslim people, and those attacks on Muslims which still continue even in here.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Also noting that there may be far deeper issues for the cognitive dissonance shown, due to military PTSD and related thought processes in the sufferers whom I have great sympathy for.

I wish people were not afraid to talk about things after they leave the military, so that the elephants would be able to leave the room and the problems aren't perpetuated.

Men fight war. Families seek asylum. Men arrest asylum-seekers. Men hate this.

 

[Oystein]

Backing up a step to note that everyone tacitly agreed with the fact that Bin Laden did, in fact, plan and implement the 9/11 attacks to protest, highlight, and avenge the attacks ... on Muslims which still continue even in here.

Say what?!? Seriously, what is wrong with you, Orphia??

Please back up all the way to the post of yours which started this mess:

Who created "terrorists"?

Poverty. Inequality. Frustration. Fear. Desperation for help from higher up. Poor education services. Poor health. Restricted immigration. Borders between neighbours. Borders blocking food sources. Borders blocking water sources. Local and international corruption due to food scarcity. Corruption due to trade restrictions. Trade restrictions due to fear of inequality. Inefficient food distribution and 30-50% global food wasted. Desperation due to inequality. Desperation due to poverty.

For your convenience, I highlighted all the things in your post which Bin Laden did NOT intend to protest with the 9/11 attacks.

And surely he did not do 9/11 to protest my, Axxman's, Allen's amd others' disagreement with your wrong claims?!

 

[Oystein]

Also noting that there may be far deeper issues for the cognitive dissonance shown, due to military PTSD and related thought processes in the sufferers whom I have great sympathy for.

I wish people were not afraid to talk about things after they leave the military, so that the elephants would be able to leave the room and the problems aren't perpetuated.

Men fight war. Families seek asylum. Men arrest asylum-seekers. Men hate this.

Are you talking about the PTSD of the Al Qaeda militants? That could be on topic.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

You're thinking Mojahideen, some were Qaeda, some were the other side, you're overly generalizing

If there had been no Afganistan war there would have been no Base group to start from.