Who created al Qaeda?

[Cosmic Yak]

So their family and extended family had enough food, clothing, and shelter to survive.

Instead of having to fight and kill... for what?

What country are your family and ancestors from? Did you or your family ever fight to protect it/them?

Specifically which members of Al Qaeda were living on the poverty line, and were forced into terrorism in order to get enough food, clothing and shelter?

 

[Oystein]

In what way do you think that the members of Al Qaeda were fighting to survive?

So their family and extended family had enough food, clothing, and shelter to survive.

Instead of having to fight and kill... for what?
...

I think this is false, and the opposite is true:

Al Qaeda, or at least OBL, quite explicitly wished to drag the USA into an extended war with the Islamic (Sunni, Wahhabi) world. They wanted their family and extended family to be subjected to long wars.

A man who wants to make sure his family and extended family have enough food, clothing, and shelter to survive really should not kill himself and forfeit any and all chances to provide enough food, clothing, and shelter to anyone.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think this is false, and the opposite is true:

Al Qaeda, or at least OBL, quite explicitly wished to drag the USA into an extended war with the Islamic (Sunni, Wahhabi) world. They wanted their family and extended family to be subjected to long wars.

A man who wants to make sure his family and extended family have enough food, clothing, and shelter to survive really should not kill himself and forfeit any and all chances to provide enough food, clothing, and shelter to anyone.

Osama Bin Laden became radicalized after working on the Grand Masque at Mecca,
It was Clearly the Wahabbist radicals that funded the madrasa system of Religious Schools that influenced him. Then the Soviet invasion gave him the opportunity to Organize. I remember him opperating a bull dozer building a Tank Trap in Afganistan on 60 Minutes where he explained all this himself.

 

[beachnut]

Who created al Qaeda?

Qaeda

 

[Orphia Nay]

The language I see in here is fixed on huge, nebulous entities and a few names.

It's like people have no sense of the billions of people in the green crescent, Central Asia, and East Asia.

People are assuming that one or two people have the ability to change the minds and lives of millions.

As if you are thinking, "muslims / brown people have no minds of their own".

As if a person in an Islamic country is automatically a cold-hearted killer who supports cold-hearted killers.

As if the 9/11 hijackers were the only "terrorists" in the history of the world.

As if you've missed the global journalistic debate about "terrorist" being a subjective term.

As if you don't read the international news about acid-throwing at women, student rapes in India, the climate and corruption protests across whole countries such as Lebanon and Sudan, not to mention globally.

 

[Axxman300]

The language I see in here is fixed on huge, nebulous entities and a few names.

It's like people have no sense of the billions of people in the green crescent, Central Asia, and East Asia.

People are assuming that one or two people have the ability to change the minds and lives of millions.

As if you are thinking, "muslims / brown people have no minds of their own".

As if a person in an Islamic country is automatically a cold-hearted killer who supports cold-hearted killers.

As if the 9/11 hijackers were the only "terrorists" in the history of the world.

As if you've missed the global journalistic debate about "terrorist" being a subjective term.

As if you don't read the international news about acid-throwing at women, student rapes in India, the climate and corruption protests across whole countries such as Lebanon and Sudan, not to mention globally.

The question is "Who Created Al Qaeda?", not why is there terrorism?

Al Qaeda was the only group involved in the events of 9-11/ 2001 hence they are the only only relative subject.

Al Qaeda doesn't care about the poor who have nothing to offer them. Case in point: The Balkans, where was Al Qaeda while Serbs were engaged in the wholesale slaughter of Muslims? Where was Al Qaeda while 100,000 Muslims died from famine in Somalia because food was being hijacked by local warlords? Where was Al Qaeda when Saddam put down the Shiite uprising in Basra? Where was Al Qaeda while the Iraqi and Syrian Baath Parties murdered an average of 25,000 Muslims each year to maintain control over their lands?

Don't get me wrong, Al Qaeda WAS there in all of those places but chose to do nothing. Meanwhile, take a wild guess who else was there and unlike Al Qaeda was working to save lives?

 

[Allen773]

Al Qaeda doesn't care about the poor who have nothing to offer them. Case in point: The Balkans, where was Al Qaeda while Serbs were engaged in the wholesale slaughter of Muslims?

Not sure about the rest but at least in this case Al Qaeda did not “do nothing”; they did a lot, mostly engaging in indiscriminate violence and getting their grunts martyred in the process while bin Laden, Zawahiri, and their other leaders watched from afar under the protection of like-minded Islamist cults, first in Sudan and then in Afghanistan.

Not that their actions actually helped the Muslims in the Balkans, of course. If anything, they quite plausibly helped the Serbian government, who used the presence of foreign jihadists to justify incredibly brutal violence against the Muslim population at large (come to think of it, Bashar al-Assad has used this same strategy to great effect over the course of the Syrian Civil War).

 

[Cosmic Yak]

The language I see in here is fixed on huge, nebulous entities and a few names.

Like this, you mean?

Who created "terrorists"?

Poverty.
Inequality.
Frustration.
Fear.
Desperation for help from higher up.
Poor education services.
Poor health.
Restricted immigration.
Borders between neighbours.
Borders blocking food sources.
Borders blocking water sources.
Local and international corruption due to food scarcity.
Corruption due to trade restrictions.
Trade restrictions due to fear of inequality.
Inefficient food distribution and 30-50% global food wasted.
Desperation due to inequality.
Desperation due to poverty.

Talking of 'a few names':

Specifically which members of Al Qaeda were living on the poverty line, and were forced into terrorism in order to get enough food, clothing and shelter?

If you don't want to talk about 'huge, nebulous entities', how about answering this question? Seems quite specific to me.

It's like people have no sense of the billions of people in the green crescent, Central Asia, and East Asia.

We're not talking abut them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.

People are assuming that one or two people have the ability to change the minds and lives of millions.

Julius Caesar. Genghiz Khan. Napoleon. Marx. Darwin. Tim Berners-Lee.
I would call this history, not assumption.
Still, we're not talking about them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.

As if you are thinking, "muslims / brown people have no minds of their own".

I have literally no idea where you got this from. Certainly not from this thread.

As if a person in an Islamic country is automatically a cold-hearted killer who supports cold-hearted killers.

I refer you to my above comment.

As if the 9/11 hijackers were the only "terrorists" in the history of the world.

They aren't. They are, however, the only ones being discussed in this thread.
It's a thread about Al Qaeda, in the 9/11 sub-forum. Perhaps you missed that.

As if you've missed the global journalistic debate about "terrorist" being a subjective term.

As this is a thread about Al Qaeda, are you attempting to argue here that they are not terrorists?

As if you don't read the international news about acid-throwing at women, student rapes in India, the climate and corruption protests across whole countries such as Lebanon and Sudan, not to mention globally.

Once again, this has nothing whatsoever with the topic of this thread. It is also immensely patronising, and apparently based on nothing more than your dislike of men, rather than anything anyone has said here.
If you want to start a thread about the causes of terrorism in general, or a thread about how horrid men are, go right ahead. Just put it in the right forum.

 

[Orphia Nay]

The question is "Who Created Al Qaeda?", not why is there terrorism?

Al Qaeda was the only group involved in the events of 9-11/ 2001 hence they are the only only relative subject.

Al Qaeda doesn't care about the poor who have nothing to offer them. Case in point: The Balkans, where was Al Qaeda while Serbs were engaged in the wholesale slaughter of Muslims? Where was Al Qaeda while 100,000 Muslims died from famine in Somalia because food was being hijacked by local warlords? Where was Al Qaeda when Saddam put down the Shiite uprising in Basra? Where was Al Qaeda while the Iraqi and Syrian Baath Parties murdered an average of 25,000 Muslims each year to maintain control over their lands?

Don't get me wrong, Al Qaeda WAS there in all of those places but chose to do nothing. Meanwhile, take a wild guess who else was there and unlike Al Qaeda was working to save lives?

This sounds like Trump’s “whataboutism” and like you are blaming Al Qaeda for not being bigger.

Like this, you mean?



Talking of 'a few names':


If you don't want to talk about 'huge, nebulous entities', how about answering this question? Seems quite specific to me.




We're not talking abut them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.




Julius Caesar. Genghiz Khan. Napoleon. Marx. Darwin. Tim Berners-Lee.
I would call this history, not assumption.
Still, we're not talking about them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.



I have literally no idea where you got this from. Certainly not from this thread.



I refer you to my above comment.



They aren't. They are, however, the only ones being discussed in this thread.
It's a thread about Al Qaeda, in the 9/11 sub-forum. Perhaps you missed that.



As this is a thread about Al Qaeda, are you attempting to argue here that they are not terrorists?




Once again, this has nothing whatsoever with the topic of this thread. It is also immensely patronising, and apparently based on nothing more than your dislike of men, rather than anything anyone has said here.
If you want to start a thread about the causes of terrorism in general, or a thread about how horrid men are, go right ahead. Just put it in the right forum.

Men?

That’s what you want to reduce this to?

I love men, and can see how they suffer.

That suffering may be why you can’t see a bigger picture.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Here’s an example of the issues in Central Asia and the subcontinent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_(Amendment)_Act,_2019?wprov=sfti1


India’s amendment to the Citizenship Act.

It’s trying to help non-Muslims who flee persecution in Pakistan.

Yet it’s being criticised by not helping enough people in Bangladesh, Assam, or Afghanistan.


What about X? What about Y? etc.


Focusing on a category for one facet of one’s humanity creates divisions.


Focusing on the term “Al Qaeda” today is not seeing the influencing factors before 9/11, and not seeing the extent of the outcomes of the retaliation to 9/11.


I answered the question, “Who created Al Qaeda?”. The videos were excellent.


I’m asking fellow 9/11 debunkers to look deeper into the points the videos raised.

 

[Axxman300]

There is an international politics board, feel free to start a terrorism thread there.

This is the 9-11 CT board. Al Qaeda was the lone terrorist group involved. AL Qaeda's motivations have been clearly and repeatedly stated by their leadership. Their actions have been documented. There is no broader picture as far as Al Qaeda goes on this particular forum.

 

[rockysmith76]

If the Soviet Union hadn't invaded Afganistan there would not have been an Al-Qaeda.

You're thinking Mojahideen, some were Qaeda, some were the other side, you're overly generalizing

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Like this, you mean?



Talking of 'a few names':


If you don't want to talk about 'huge, nebulous entities', how about answering this question? Seems quite specific to me.




We're not talking abut them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.




Julius Caesar. Genghiz Khan. Napoleon. Marx. Darwin. Tim Berners-Lee.
I would call this history, not assumption.
Still, we're not talking about them. We're talking about Al Qaeda.



I have literally no idea where you got this from. Certainly not from this thread.



I refer you to my above comment.



They aren't. They are, however, the only ones being discussed in this thread.
It's a thread about Al Qaeda, in the 9/11 sub-forum. Perhaps you missed that.



As this is a thread about Al Qaeda, are you attempting to argue here that they are not terrorists?




Once again, this has nothing whatsoever with the topic of this thread. It is also immensely patronising, and apparently based on nothing more than your dislike of men, rather than anything anyone has said here.
If you want to start a thread about the causes of terrorism in general, or a thread about how horrid men are, go right ahead. Just put it in the right forum.

Men?

That’s what you want to reduce this to?

No, that's what you want to reduce it to:

Hugs, men.

I get it, you're all trying to win in the survival of the fittest, but give me some credit, don't dismiss my whole list of reasons because you thought of one more.

Both of you were too intimidated by my greater effort at compassion (thinking takes energy) to see that I included:

TL;DR Thanks for the simple mansplanations. xx

You made this about men, for reasons I assume you think were valid.
I venture to disagree.
You then go on to reduce the entirety of my post to one word.
If you think it's wrong, don't do it yourself. Simple male philosophy, but it works for me.

I love men, and can see how they suffer.

That suffering may be why you can’t see a bigger picture.

I look forward with anticipation for your evidence that I am unable to see a bigger picture- in another thread in the appropriate forum.

Alternatively, if you want to discuss Al Qaeda, I would be happy to do so. Handicapped though I am by my limited world view and lack of compassion, I will endeavour to make some useful contributions.

 

[Allen773]

Osama bin Laden and a handful of his “Afgan Arab” lieutenants created al-Qaeda in the late 1980s as an outgrowth of his (much overrated, to be honest) efforts fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan throughout that decade. His Afghanistan jihad in that decade was sponsored by Saudi intelligence, generously assisted by members of both his own large and wealthy family and the even larger and wealthier House of Saud, among other wealthy and non-wealthy royals and commoners in other parts of the Arab world, particular the Gulf monarchies. Their support was generally welcomed by Pakistani intelligence (who were really the ones calling the shots in the war against the Soviets, because they were the intermediary for all CIA and others foreign government assistance to the mujahideen, and via their distribution of funds and weapons, the Pakistani ISI could pick winners and losers among the various mujahideen factions).

The Saudi/Gulf-sponsored “Afghan Arabs” with Osama bin Laden (and even more so at the time, his jihadist mentor Abdullah Azzam) as their point man, could run their own parallel “private” fundraising, logistical, and operational programs beyond what the Saudis agreed to matched the CIA dollar-for-dollar to the ISI-controlled operations.

There’s ZERO evidence that the CIA ever directly crossed paths with Abdullah Azzam and Osama bin Laden’s efforts. At best, they were vaguely aware of some Saudi-coordinated “private Arab volunteers” whose fundraising was controlled by a religiously zealous Saudi trust-funder. To the extent the Americans knew about the Arab volunteers, they didn’t think highly of them other than that they might be useful cannon fodder.

Bin Laden was greeted with a hero’s welcome in Saudi Arabia after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, but when he tried to rally the troops against Saddam Hussein in defense of his country (the site of the Holy Places, which the bin Laden construction family had always had a sweetheart deal/exclusive contract with the Saudi rulers to renovate), he was not only met with rejection and condescension (thanks, but no thanks), he learned that the “Custodians of the Holy Places”, with the grudging blessing of the Wahhabi establishment (!) had taken up a better offer - the infidel Americans, whose military would soon enter the Kingdom en masse.

Can you imagine the HUMILIATION and anger felt by bin Laden? “After all I’ve done for you, this is how you repay me?!”

Most if not all of you know this history, but it bears repeating when we talk about the origins, evolution, and escalation of al-Qaeda’s operations and targets.

 

[bknight]

Osama bin Laden and a handful of his “Afgan Arab” lieutenants created al-Qaeda in the late 1980s as an outgrowth of his (much overrated, to be honest) efforts fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan throughout that decade. His Afghanistan jihad in that decade was sponsored by Saudi intelligence, generously assisted by members of both his own large and wealthy family and the even larger and wealthier House of Saud, among other wealthy and non-wealthy royals and commoners in other parts of the Arab world, particular the Gulf monarchies. Their support was generally welcomed by Pakistani intelligence (who were really the ones calling the shots in the war against the Soviets, because they were the intermediary for all CIA and others foreign government assistance to the mujahideen, and via their distribution of funds and weapons, the Pakistani ISI could pick winners and losers among the various mujahideen factions).

The Saudi/Gulf-sponsored “Afghan Arabs” with Osama bin Laden (and even more so at the time, his jihadist mentor Abdullah Azzam) as their point man, could run their own parallel “private” fundraising, logistical, and operational programs beyond what the Saudis agreed to matched the CIA dollar-for-dollar to the ISI-controlled operations.

There’s ZERO evidence that the CIA ever directly crossed paths with Abdullah Azzam and Osama bin Laden’s efforts. At best, they were vaguely aware of some Saudi-coordinated “private Arab volunteers” whose fundraising was controlled by a religiously zealous Saudi trust-funder. To the extent the Americans knew about the Arab volunteers, they didn’t think highly of them other than that they might be useful cannon fodder.

Bin Laden was greeted with a hero’s welcome in Saudi Arabia after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, but when he tried to rally the troops against Saddam Hussein in defense of his country (the site of the Holy Places, which the bin Laden construction family had always had a sweetheart deal/exclusive contract with the Saudi rulers to renovate), he was not only met with rejection and condescension (thanks, but no thanks), he learned that the “Custodians of the Holy Places”, with the grudging blessing of the Wahhabi establishment (!) had taken up a better offer - the infidel Americans, whose military would soon enter the Kingdom en masse.

Can you imagine the HUMILIATION and anger felt by bin Laden? “After all I’ve done for you, this is how you repay me?!”

Most if not all of you know this history, but it bears repeating when we talk about the origins, evolution, and escalation of al-Qaeda’s operations and targets.

That in essence is how I have heard the path toward 9/11. The infidels were cleaning up the Saddam mess instead of the Arabs cleaning up the mess. The infidels were housing their troops in Saudi territories which was in OBL(UBL) eyes a sacrilege. So the Infidels(Americans) were the ones wearing a target on their back. I guess his loyalty to the Kingdom and his religious beliefs although not exonerated the ruler of Saudi, moved them out of the firing line for humiliating him.

 

[Mojo]

I'd bet Shemp had a hand in there somewhere.

I really don’t want to think about what Shemp might have had his hand in.

 

[Orphia Nay]

There is an international politics board, feel free to start a terrorism thread there.

This is the 9-11 CT board. Al Qaeda was the lone terrorist group involved. AL Qaeda's motivations have been clearly and repeatedly stated by their leadership. Their actions have been documented. There is no broader picture as far as Al Qaeda goes on this particular forum.

I started the first 9/11 CT thread on JREF before we even had a 9/11 forum, I know exactly what ‘this forum’ is about.

You're thinking Mojahideen, some were Qaeda, some were the other side, you're overly generalizing

 

[Axxman300]

I started the first 9/11 CT thread on JREF before we even had a 9/11 forum, I know exactly what ‘this forum’ is about.

And yet here you are trying to hijack this thread.

 

[Loss Leader]

And yet here you are trying to hijack this thread.

Hahaha. Hijack. I see what you did there. Very clever.

 

[ozeco41]

I started the first 9/11 CT thread on JREF before we even had a 9/11 forum, I know exactly what ‘this forum’ is about.

Hi Orphia. Long time no see.

For those of us with cynical memories the "go start your own thread" ploy is not new. On one infamous low point occasion it was deployed against an alleged truther who had the temerity to argue against the prevailing wisdom. He was right.