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Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

Gamolon said:
I guess knowing about only one past life and doing/experiencing terrible things wouldn't eh? I suppose Hitler's spirit was thrilled with what he had done in his past life.
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And Scorpion's brother who died as an infant, he really has a lot to learn from that life.
 
Scorpion said:
You keep talking about a girl of three being raped by soldiers, but give no evidence. The above quote by you says it was thirteen year olds that were raped. But it seems that was not horrible enough sounding for you, so you dropped the age to three years old.
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What about a 3 year old being kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1160702/india-news-kidnap-train-station-gang-crime-india

Shall I use that actual event from now on? I can't see how it will help you articulate your beliefs but happy to do so.

So go back and everywhere I have said a 3 year old raped by soldiers and killed substitute "3 year old kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded".

Looking forward to your explanations now you know about an actual event to use to answer the questions I asked you.
 
@ Scorpion,

It comes over very clearly to me that you have a strong belief in the spirit world concept, and are making great efforts to rationalise that belief into something coherent, for the rest of us. Your starting point is the belief I think, triggered by an experience perhaps? You didn't rationalise your way into it - right?

Now as you may not know those moments when some experience propels a person into a faith, happens across many religions with the possible exception of Catholicism. :D

Is there a slightest chance you are deluded?
 
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Thor 2 said:
@ Scorpion,

It comes over very clearly to me that you have a strong belief in the spirit world concept, and are making great efforts to rationalise that belief into something coherent, for the rest of us. Your starting point is the belief I think, triggered by an experience perhaps? You didn't rationalise your way into it - right?

Now as you may not know those moments when some experience propels a person into a faith, happens across many religions with the possible exception of Catholicism. :D

Is there a slightest chance you are deluded?
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I do not think I am deluded, but there is always that chance.

I went to a spiritualist church for two years before getting such evidential messages that I came to the conclusion the simplest explanation for what mediums were doing is they were doing what they said they were, and talking to the spirits of the departed.
 
Darat said:
What about a 3 year old being kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1160702/india-news-kidnap-train-station-gang-crime-india

Shall I use that actual event from now on? I can't see how it will help you articulate your beliefs but happy to do so.

So go back and everywhere I have said a 3 year old raped by soldiers and killed substitute "3 year old kidnapped, gang raped and beheaded".

Looking forward to your explanations now you know about an actual event to use to answer the questions I asked you.
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I cannot answer for such horrible things that you seem to revel in.

I try to talk about spirits and how everything works out for the ultimate good, but the conversation always gets dragged back to my being expected to justify Hitler, and other horrible things.
 
Scorpion said:
I do not think I am deluded, but there is always that chance.
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Exploring that chance is why I asked you what you've been doing for all the time you said it took to acquire -- and become entrenched in -- your beliefs. Ensuring that one is not deluded requires critical introspection. While you are merciless in your critical analysis of others' religions, it's readily apparent you've conducted no such exercise to examine your own beliefs. You say you reject what is patently absurd, but that's a very, very low bar compared to what you inflict upon others.

....the simplest explanation for what mediums were doing is they were doing what they said they were, and talking to the spirits of the departed.
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No.

The explanation you say is "simplest" requires you to conjure up entire cosmologies of gods, demigods, and angels -- none of which you have the slightest shred of evidence for. In fact, you can't even keep the story straight from day to day. Explanations are not "simple" when they require ever-shifting speculation to keep them in line with critical challenges.

By comparison, you admit there are fake mediums -- people who appear to do exactly what these people you cling to claim to be doing, but do it by sneaky, clever deceptions. Your only answer to that is that you can't imagine why anyone would go to such lengths. That's a lazy, unimaginative rebuttal. In any case, how are deception and making stuff up -- fake mediums -- not the obviously simplest explanation?
 
Scorpion said:
I cannot answer for such horrible things that you seem to revel in.
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What makes you think he's revelling in anything? He's bringing up facts regarding the world we live in. They are unpleasant, but they are facts.

I try to talk about spirits and how everything works out for the ultimate good, but the conversation always gets dragged back to my being expected to justify Hitler, and other horrible things.
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We don't observe that everything works out for the ultimate good. Evil exists, whether you want it to or not. If your religion cannot explain why it does and propose a remedy for it, then it's a woefully incomplete religion, one that serves only to blow sunshine up people's nether regions. You don't get to pick and choose what observations your theories explain and then try to pass them off as the "simplest" theories.
 
Scorpion said:
I cannot answer for such horrible things that you seem to revel in.



I try to talk about spirits and how everything works out for the ultimate good, but the conversation always gets dragged back to my being expected to justify Hitler, and other horrible things.
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The issue is you are telling us how the world works, and as anyone can see the world has a lot of bad in it.

You claim the bad is in fact part of the whole process, and you go beyond that and tell us your god entity has created this system and that it is not only that bad things happening is unavoidable but a necessary part of your god entity's creation.

When questioned about the issues that bad things happening raises for your beliefs, you try to change your claims. And tie yourself.in knots.

You may not like thinking about the bad things, just like me and I suspect most people, but I am not the one claiming that bad things happening is necessary, condoned by your god entity and ensured to happen by your karma angels.

With all those distractions out of the way will you now tell us which of the three reasons you have given for bad things happening is your actual belief?
 
Scorpion said:
If and when he realized this he would be in a hell of his own design.
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It wasn't of his own design. The incarnation was looked at by the Angels of Karma and selected by them for his spirit to occupy. Hitler's incarnation, according to you, would have been REQUIRED by the Angels of Karma and God to cause suffering onto all the evil spirits of that time.

What part are you not getting?

There is no free will in your spiritual scenario.
 
Scorpion said:
I cannot answer for such horrible things that you seem to revel in.

I try to talk about spirits and how everything works out for the ultimate good, but the conversation always gets dragged back to my being expected to justify Hitler, and other horrible things.
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You have already justified these horrible things. You've said the horrible sufferings are for the evil spirits who have done horrible things in past lives. These evil spirits need to suffer in order to atone for their previous evil deeds and move the karmic balance back into the positive so they can evolve.

Is this not true?
 
Scorpion said:
The soul might not be able to bear having knowledge of past lives, knowing we had done terrible things might drive us mad. It is hard experience that forces changes in the soul.
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And yet plenty of people live for fifty years or longer after they've committed a terrible thing without experiencing madness.



Gamolon said:
You have already justified these horrible things. You've said the horrible sufferings are for the evil spirits who have done horrible things in past lives. These evil spirits need to suffer in order to atone for their previous evil deeds and move the karmic balance back into the positive so they can evolve.

Is this not true?
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In that case, there must have been a whole lot of evil spirits born to Jewish parents in Poland between 1880 and 1945.

What in the world must have been going on with the spirits of the Schindlerjuden, who spend years living in ghettos, were loaded onto train cars and taken to work/death camps, saw many of their friends and family die, lived in utter terror right up until the end of the war, then got a happy and healthy back 50 afterwards, seeing their children and grandchildren prosper in a new nation.

Either we're suffering for sins in past lives or we're here to learn to be better people. They can't both be true, can they?
 
So, going back to my question scorpion, if you've been a horrible person in the most recent incarnation, in your next one you will be punished, right?

So I'm an unrepentant murdering bastard in this life (I'm not but this is a thought experiment) and I die. My spirit passes on to...wherever and I am lined up to be reincarnated. My next incarnation will be one full of (karmically deserved) suffering yes?
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Unless you’re Jewish, in which case you relish paradoxes.
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To be fair, only the scholars relish that stuff. Your averagely observant Jew just enjoys being part of a community of shared rituals. (source: The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel)
 
Loss Leader said:
To be fair, only the scholars relish that stuff. Your averagely observant Jew just enjoys being part of a community of shared rituals. (source: The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel)
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And, I think, a certain body of shared values. The same is true of the Christians in my neighborhood. I doubt any of them could give you a meaningful summary of their key doctrines and how they differ from other Christians. But they enjoy being in a community of liberal Christians. It's more likely they feel a part of the congregation because of the other people in it, rather than the historical or doctrinal underpinnings. It's a Sunday morning social club. You don't need much of the nitty-gritty theology to establish a suitable body of shared values.
 
Scorpion said:
I expect Hitler had a rude awakening after his death. He probably found himself in a dark place with all the time it takes for him to realize the consequences of what he did. That would become his personal hell and the only way out of it is to reincarnate and face whatever future lives throw at him.
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And then, if he reincarnates, he will have absolutely no knowledge of his past crimes, so how is this going to help him live a better life?
 
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