Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

And then, if he reincarnates, he will have absolutely no knowledge of his past crimes, so how is this going to help him live a better life?

It seems he will have the "latent characteristics" of a mass-murdering dictator. I'll leave it to your imagination to say what kind of life that predisposes him to. What is a "latent characteristic?" It appears to be something that has enough of the effective properties of memory to save Scorpion's bacon, but without using the word "memory."
 
I don't know about three things, but the spirit guide of Ursula Roberts said in a trance lecture that Mozart was a musician in nine incarnations before he was born as the prodigy.


This anecdote as an example of, or evidence for, the reincarnation narrative of improving ones innate character over multiple sequential incarnations, doesn't make sense. Even if we accept at face value that Mozart's musical talent arose from a process of deliberately developing that talent over multiple incarnations.

For one thing, musical virtuosity has bugger all to do with moral character. The lives of great composers and musical performers (and virtuoso artists of all types) are far from a parade of exemplary personal character. Taken as a whole I'm not even sure they'd average out to average (though Mozart himself appears to have been neither particularly venal nor particularly praiseworthy in overall character). So what are the Angels of Karma doing selecting* for musical talent? If you're trying to improve a dairy herd's milk production you don't make selection choices to improve a few cows' dancing ability. It seems a stunt, a sideshow orthogonal to the supposed purpose.

Second, and related to that, Mozart's musical virtuosity does not appear to have done a whole lot of good for Mozart. It's a myth that Mozart died in abject poverty and misery, but he was in debt when he died and it was not until after his early death that his works were widely appreciated. There's no evidence that he sought or achieved moral or spiritual improvement, nor overcame any great moral or spiritual shortcoming, via his music.

This doesn't present any problem for a conventional narrative of divine acts by angels or gods or muses who confer extraordinary talents on certain mortals, thereby indirectly gifting the human world with their deeds or works. Mozart's music as a divine gift to mankind is a narrative that makes sense to most theists. But not for the Angels of Karma! Because by what we've been told here, improving the world is not their job.

Or if it is their job, that's a crucial part of how the world works that's been omitted from the spiritualist narrative. If the Angels of Karma deliberately assigned a musically adept spirit to a musically destined life for the purpose of introducing great music into the world to benefit others, that upsets the whole applecart. Because the applecart is built on the core idea that only direct personal experience contributes to spiritual progression. Such as, one can only learn sympathy for slaves by living lifetimes enslaved. Improving the world, such as by working to abolish slavery in some region, is not necessary or conducive to that process.

If we can learn from the world, from the lives of heroic reformers, from the works of great artists, from the efforts of doctors and scientists, from the stories told by great novelists and filmmakers; if we can improve the world and not just ourselves; if the fact that Mozart lived and composed could benefit all of us and not just some miscellaneous spirit who happened to be wearing Mozart at the time; why, then the Angels of Karma and the whole creaky apparatus of lifetimes of educational oppression and suffering would be shown up as cruel and wasteful.

I would imagine a truly devoted spiritualist would not want to upset that applecart by even breathing the name of Mozart.


*Note that the process that's been described here, of selecting predestined lives for each spirit's moral advancement, fulfills all the criteria for artificial selection in the Darwinian sense. It's not exactly a selective breeding program, but it's purported to have the same rationale and same long-term effects as one: the improvement of innate characteristics of a population toward some pre-determined desired condition.
 
Mozart's musical ability is fully explained by the usual combination of nature and nurture. No addiitional fanciful explanation involving reincarnated souls is required.
 
Mozart's musical ability is fully explained by the usual combination of nature and nurture. No addiitional fanciful explanation involving reincarnated souls is required.


Of course, and I've said as much, either earlier in this thread or in a previous one where spiritualist narratives of reincarnation were discussed and Mozart's talents offered as an example. Mozart's father was a noted music teacher, who dropped all his other pursuits to instruct his one surviving son.

I'm just pointing out that even within the overall spiritualist reincarnation narrative, Karma angels taking on the role of selective breeders of musical talent doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
Sorry to get back to Hitler, but, say he reincarnated. Someone has to punish or teach a lesson (which won't be remembered.) Then the spirit that did stuff to the Hitler spirit must have its comeuppance; then any spirits that accomplished that... pretty soon it's turtles...... There's no end to it!
 
Of course, and I've said as much, either earlier in this thread or in a previous one where spiritualist narratives of reincarnation were discussed and Mozart's talents offered as an example. Mozart's father was a noted music teacher, who dropped all his other pursuits to instruct his one surviving son.

I'm just pointing out that even within the overall spiritualist reincarnation narrative, Karma angels taking on the role of selective breeders of musical talent doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Sorry to get back to Hitler, but, say he reincarnated. Someone has to punish or teach a lesson (which won't be remembered.) Then the spirit that did stuff to the Hitler spirit must have its comeuppance; then any spirits that accomplished that... pretty soon it's turtles...... There's no end to it!


I heartily agree with both of you.

The more one delves into this and tries to make some sense of it, the what if's just explode and you find yourself chasing them all over. No wonder Scorpion is having such a hard time of it. I think he may have packed up his chakras and gone home.
 
How the sodding hell does this thread have 76 pages...? It's like the first page died and reincarnated 75 times, learning nothing from its previous lives.
 
Your post (telling of your incredulity), helps the page count build. :)

Definitely, I've posted in the thread before. I'm just genuinely astounded that it's gotten to 76 pages of absolute waffle. One man set in his ways about what he thinks he sees, hears and feels inside his own mind, and everyone else trying to persuade him otherwise. It's like sitting in a room with Morrissey and trying to explain to him that the Smiths are crap as he sits there in a cardigan humming his own songs under his breath. God, I hate you, Morrissey.
 
Definitely, I've posted in the thread before. I'm just genuinely astounded that it's gotten to 76 pages of absolute waffle. One man set in his ways about what he thinks he sees, hears and feels inside his own mind, and everyone else trying to persuade him otherwise. It's like sitting in a room with Morrissey and trying to explain to him that the Smiths are crap as he sits there in a cardigan humming his own songs under his breath. God, I hate you, Morrissey.

It's for exactly the same reason that people rubber-neck at a car crash.
 
I heartily agree with both of you.

The more one delves into this and tries to make some sense of it, the what if's just explode and you find yourself chasing them all over. No wonder Scorpion is having such a hard time of it. I think he may have packed up his chakras and gone home.
It will be another reset.
 
You have already justified these horrible things. You've said the horrible sufferings are for the evil spirits who have done horrible things in past lives. These evil spirits need to suffer in order to atone for their previous evil deeds and move the karmic balance back into the positive so they can evolve.

This hits the nail more squarely on the head than I did. In response to Scorpion's pleas that we only talk about the nice parts of his religion, I responded that a religion that doesn't own up to the existence of evil and have a plan for it isn't a religion worth paying attention to. If lofty-sounding pretenses of empty profundity are all your religion can muster, then it fails to answer the big questions -- the ones we most want answers to. Now I said that he had to have a plan to alleviate evil, which is what most religions want to do. Instead, Scorpion's religion embraces evil, war, and depravity as necessary components of its redemption model. At least other religions were smart enough to conjure up a devil upon whom to blame all that, a being whose outcome we have no investment in. It may be a cartoon villain, but at least it's a proper villain. The story is coherent, if a bit simplistic. Scorpion's version can't decide whether the roles we act out under the imposition of angels incurs any responsibility. Good justice says we should answer for the consequences of our free-will decision, but not the consequences of others compelling us to act.
 
This hits the nail more squarely on the head than I did. In response to Scorpion's pleas that we only talk about the nice parts of his religion, I responded that a religion that doesn't own up to the existence of evil and have a plan for it isn't a religion worth paying attention to. If lofty-sounding pretenses of empty profundity are all your religion can muster, then it fails to answer the big questions -- the ones we most want answers to. Now I said that he had to have a plan to alleviate evil, which is what most religions want to do. Instead, Scorpion's religion embraces evil, war, and depravity as necessary components of its redemption model. At least other religions were smart enough to conjure up a devil upon whom to blame all that, a being whose outcome we have no investment in. It may be a cartoon villain, but at least it's a proper villain. The story is coherent, if a bit simplistic. Scorpion's version can't decide whether the roles we act out under the imposition of angels incurs any responsibility. Good justice says we should answer for the consequences of our free-will decision, but not the consequences of others compelling us to act.

TBH, I think Scorpion is quite well aware if the nastier consequences of his belief system. He does not like that aspect, so he brushes those under the intellectual rug.
 
Has Scorpion left the building? I feel like I am talking about him behind his back. Which is OK. He may need time to think.
 
Maybe the Angels of Karma have bought him a new computer and he's waiting for the spirits to remind him of his password?
 
Has Scorpion left the building? I feel like I am talking about him behind his back. Which is OK. He may need time to think.

Actually I have been unwell for a few days with a bug that made me so weak I struggled to get out of bed. Posting was not my priority.
While I was laying in bed stewing in my own juice I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them ,and I do not even want to try. It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.
To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.

I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same and there are several things that have given me evidence of them. One of those is the voice that told me I had a win on the lottery. Another is that a friend of mine once came running up the road when I was having a mental meltdown, and he burst into my room asking if I was aright. He knew I was in trouble by telepathy or esp.
There are also evidential messages I received from several mediums.

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.

I know I cannot win a debate here, and will not convince anyone of anything, so I figure I might as well give up. Cheers.
 
I reflected on the difficult questions I have been asked, particularly the ones about murdered children and Hitler, and I concluded I don't have answers for them, and I do not even want to try.

But you have tried. Your answers simply flip-flop between two incompatible claims. You don't have an ultimate answer because you haven't accepted that your claims are inherently contradictory. Your critics see this easily because it's frankly nothing new. The problem of predestination is well studied in theology. Not well solved, but well studied.

It seems to me I might as well bang my head on a wall as try to justify my beliefs here.

Which is why everyone keeps asking what you hope to accomplish here. You have a homegrown religion riddled with speculation, contradiction, and giant plot holes. Until you have a justification that fixes that, skeptics are going to continue pointing them out to you, and continue being relatively unsympathetic to your frustration. When you can't make head or tail out of your own beliefs, it's the skeptic's job to frustrate you.

The unspoken question is what you're going to do with that frustration. In the past you've vented it on skeptics, trying to pin fault on them for not buying your arguments. Is that still the plan?

To me spiritualism is about hope and healing and ultimate redemption.

No.

As much as you want to look the other way, your religion requires suffering at the hands of others in order to bring about "ultimate redemption." And these others get assigned without their consent to such maleficent lives. The system you've tried to devise is obviously morally repugnant. Other religions do a much better job of reckoning the problem of evil. A few try to ignore it. You wallow in it. No, your religion is not about fluffy bunnies and happy times. It's about trying to justify evil.

I will reiterate that my beliefs remain the same...

Of course, because you have no intention of examining them critically, much less changing them to accommodate its own logical inconsistency or to account for contrary fact. You came here entrenched and you will leave entrenched. No surprise there. You might apologize to your critics for wasting their time trying to educate you or help you see where you went wrong.

These things are clear in my mind and nobody can convince me they are invalid.

You suffer from untreated schizophrenia. Of what evidentiary value is your avowed clarity of mind under those circumstances?

I know I cannot win a debate here...

Why do you think that is?
 

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