Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Rolfe]

Problem I have is I actually get Rolfe's argument, re losing things.

Tend to agree with it.

Then it all turns to **** with the anti men and trans women are all loaded guns just wanting to go off speile, she adds on after (I am assuming she is female).

You see the word I never said?

You want us to play Russian roulette just because all the chambers aren't loaded.

 

[Lithrael]

Are we the only mammal on the planet that generally asks permission before jumping on a female? Then stop complaining! We've come so far!

*headdesk*

Yeah, ‘stop complaining’, I’ll get right on that

 

[JihadJane]

Does anyone here ever get laid?

Are we the only mammal on the planet that generally asks permission before jumping on a female? Then stop complaining! We've come so far!

No, nearly all (?) mammals give consent. In some (e.g. big cats) it would be extremely dangerous if consent was not established before the act.

 

[Rolfe]

I think there has to be a distinction between harrassment and rape here. Males of pretty much every mammalian species are into harrassment of females big-time. However, rape is not something that happens in non-human species. The female either engages in avoidance activity or consents.

The big difference is that we're talking about species with oestrus cycles where there is a significant period of metoestrus or anoestrus between the receptive periods of oestrus. Males only harrass females in pro-oestrus or oestrus. They leave them alone the rest of the time. So the females get a break.

Human females are treated as potential mating possibilities 24/7 by human males. There is never a time when a woman can simply go about her business without the possibility of harrassment. Must be nice to be a bitch, really.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Does anyone here ever get laid?

Are we the only mammal on the planet that generally asks permission before jumping on a female? Then stop complaining! We've come so far!

"Oh no nooo! We're going to change men!" That seems to be the fantasy.

How about we deal with reality a little? Men have dicks and are slaves to them to varying degrees at different times. We act like men sometimes. And I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about the Gillette commercial where it's bad to take a second glance at a lady.

"Not cool bro", was the line I believe. You know what? **** you, bro. Nobody agrees with you or acts like that. You tried the "Metro Man" thing already - give it up, nobody is buying it. We're still men!

I honestly feel that some people don't think humans are actually human anymore. We are supposed to rise up to some mythical mode of behavior that no mortal has ever achieved. No bad thoughts, no whistling at girls, no inappropriate Halloween costumes from 30 years ago.

"My boob was brushed up against in high school. I'm a surVIvor" No you're not, you're a ******* whiner. I don't usually asterisk here but **** this **** already.

Anyways, no, Trans women are still not women, no matter how you...slice it.

That's "progress", bro! NOTHING is innate or biologically hardwired - sex, race - "social constructs" that can be de-constructed and replaced with ... something else(?).

Well, all except being white and its innate "racism" toward "People of Colour" (or "non-whites", but note that it's always a distinction between whites and everyone else). This can only be fixed by more drastic means, such as disincentivising breeding between whites and the relentless hyping of race-mixing (see; practically any movie or TV advert) accompanied by mass-importation of non-whites ("refugees") .

 

[d4m10n]

Well, all except being white and its innate "racism" toward "People of Colour" (or "non-whites", but note that it's always a distinction between whites and everyone else). This can only be fixed by more drastic means, such as disincentivising breeding between whites and the relentless hyping of race-mixing (see; practically any movie or TV advert) accompanied by mass-importation of non-whites ("refugees") .

Can we cram any more alt-right white nationalist talking points into this thread about sex and gender?

 

[Butter!]

Does anyone here ever get laid?

Are we the only mammal on the planet that generally asks permission before jumping on a female? Then stop complaining! We've come so far!

"Oh no nooo! We're going to change men!" That seems to be the fantasy.

How about we deal with reality a little? Men have dicks and are slaves to them to varying degrees at different times. We act like men sometimes. And I'm not talking about rape, I'm talking about the Gillette commercial where it's bad to take a second glance at a lady.

"Not cool bro", was the line I believe. You know what? **** you, bro. Nobody agrees with you or acts like that. You tried the "Metro Man" thing already - give it up, nobody is buying it. We're still men!

I honestly feel that some people don't think humans are actually human anymore. We are supposed to rise up to some mythical mode of behavior that no mortal has ever achieved. No bad thoughts, no whistling at girls, no inappropriate Halloween costumes from 30 years ago.

"My boob was brushed up against in high school. I'm a surVIvor" No you're not, you're a ******* whiner. I don't usually asterisk here but **** this **** already.

Anyways, no, Trans women are still not women, no matter how you...slice it.

I don't want to redesign men, or whatever, but I wish men at large could understand how bad it feels when guys do stuff like that. It's not the end of the world, but it's not nothing. And I don't understand the common argument of "but how will anyone get laid?" Is that REALLY the way most people are getting laid? Someone hoots at them on the street and a conversation starts? I tend to **** people I somewhat know, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.

I don't walk around terrified of rape all the time, nor do I think that is reasonable. But I do get really sick of pushy advances from strangers, and I don't understand why it's wrong for women to complain about them. It's so gauche and rude as a technique, and it's not the compliment people claim it is. At best, it's saying "you look good enough to give this a shot." Wow, I'm swooning!

Yes, we're animals, but we're also animals who have learned to recognize when we are making someone deeply uncomfortable. Why shouldn't we use those skills?

(Sorry to jump in and comment on this post when I haven't been posting in this thread otherwise. I have just been reading and trying to learn.)

 

[Rolfe]

Here is a very interesting essay about all that from two years ago. The woman who wrote it has experienced a much higher degree of sexual harrassment than I ever did, but she is far from alone in recounting such experiences.

https://helensteel12.wordpress.com/...public-meeting-in-cambridge-on-23rd-nov-2017/

 

[Butter!]

Here is a very interesting essay about all that from two years ago. The woman who wrote it has experienced a much higher degree of sexual harrassment than I ever did, but she is far from alone in recounting such experiences.

https://helensteel12.wordpress.com/...public-meeting-in-cambridge-on-23rd-nov-2017/

I also think it's something that people who don't live in cities experience a good deal less, so to many, these kinds of experiences might sound (at best) exaggerated. But I've got a theory that cities of a certain size automatically develop a Creepy Dude Hatchery somewhere in their centers. It's just unbelievable the way some of these guys act. And the city I live in isn't even one of the really big ones.

I've never experienced anything remotely like it in smaller towns, though of course, that's just me.

And I don't want to take the thread off-topic. I just really wanted to respond to some of mgdm's thoughts.

 

[Butter!]

Also, the reason I haven't commented on the main thread topic is, I have no idea what to say. This sort of seems like an unsolvable situation, and it makes my head explode. It's such a charged issue that it's hard to participate, and I don't think I have a full understanding of all the issues (like self-ID and stuff) because I haven't had time lately to look into what all is going on. But the topic's an important one, so that's why I follow the thread.

 

[Earthborn]

Look, it doesn't even matter.

If you ascribe an opinion to a group of people without evidence, it matters.

Nothing changes, because my main point is that society isn't going to abolish sex-segregated spaces. Even if the majority of a very small minority wants us to, it's just not happening.

I'm sure people in the 40s in the Southern US thought the same about racial segregation... Social attitudes can change pretty quickly, and when it comes to sex/gender segregation they are changing right now.

Note also that many previously segregated spaces have already been desegregated. In the West there are no sex-segregated train cars or station waiting rooms and except maybe in the UK schools are mostly co-ed. Only a few remnants of sex segregation remain. Since these involve some of the most intimate aspects of people's lives they certainly require a bit more forethought in how to go about desegregating them, for example by making sure they provide sufficient individual privacy.

I think the comparison with racial segregation is fully addressed by simply noting that the reason for racial segregation is objectively false (for example black people are not more "brutish" than white people, etc) and hence only based on damaging stereotypes whereas the reason for sex segregation is objectively true (for example males are vastly more likely to engage in "perviness" in public changing rooms etc).

I think the main difference between racial segregation and sex segregation is the fact that people who don't fall neatly into the categories "black" and "white" are far more common and their existence is far more obvious than people who don't fall neatly into the categories "lady" and "gent". It made the problem with segregating people on those categories much more obvious to everyone.

 

[caveman1917]

I think the main difference between racial segregation and sex segregation is the fact that people who don't fall neatly into the categories "black" and "white" are far more common and their existence is far more obvious than people who don't fall neatly into the categories "lady" and "gent". It made the problem with segregating people on those categories much more obvious to everyone.

No I think they managed just fine segregating them. I don't think it stopped because people couldn't tell the difference between a black person and a white person but because people realized that black people were, in fact, not more "brutish" or whatever.

 

[Meadmaker]

I tend to **** people I somewhat know, but maybe I'm old-fashioned.

Old fashioned ain't what it used to be.



(But, good post.)

 

[Ziggurat]

I'm sure people in the 40s in the Southern US thought the same about racial segregation... Social attitudes can change pretty quickly, and when it comes to sex/gender segregation they are changing right now.

Sex is not the same as race.

Note also that many previously segregated spaces have already been desegregated. In the West there are no sex-segregated train cars or station waiting rooms and except maybe in the UK schools are mostly co-ed. Only a few remnants of sex segregation remain. Since these involve some of the most intimate aspects of people's lives they certainly require a bit more forethought in how to go about desegregating them, for example by making sure they provide sufficient individual privacy.

If you segregate down to the level of the individual, then you don’t have to segregate at the level of sex. But that’s not actually desegregation. You aren’t going to desegregate changing rooms and bathrooms. It’s not gonna happen.

I think the main difference between racial segregation and sex segregation is the fact that people who don't fall neatly into the categories "black" and "white" are far more common and their existence is far more obvious than people who don't fall neatly into the categories "lady" and "gent". It made the problem with segregating people on those categories much more obvious to everyone.

That’s only part of it. The differences between sexes are far more substantive than between races. Changing attitudes cannot erase those differences.

 

[p0lka]

You see the word I never said?

You want us to play Russian roulette just because all the chambers aren't loaded.

do you wear a helmet when you are out? if not you are playing Russian roulette with all the probabilities that could fall on your head.

Re: russian roulette, it would be nice to find out many bullets are in the chamber before concluding the probability of being shot.

If it's unlikely you would ever interact with a potential sex pervert, then why worry about it?

 

[Roboramma]

I think there has to be a distinction between harrassment and rape here. Males of pretty much every mammalian species are into harrassment of females big-time. However, rape is not something that happens in non-human species. The female either engages in avoidance activity or consents.

I find that hard to believe. It never happens that a female of another species neither concents nor is able to prevent the act of mating?

The most obvious counter-example that comes to mind is Dolphins.

The big difference is that we're talking about species with oestrus cycles where there is a significant period of metoestrus or anoestrus between the receptive periods of oestrus. Males only harrass females in pro-oestrus or oestrus. They leave them alone the rest of the time. So the females get a break.

Human females are treated as potential mating possibilities 24/7 by human males. There is never a time when a woman can simply go about her business without the possibility of harrassment. Must be nice to be a bitch, really.

Yeah, I can see how that's an important difference.

 

[Rolfe]

If it's unlikely you would ever interact with a potential sex pervert, then why worry about it?

Frankly I think it is unlikely that any woman alive has not interacted with a sex pervert more than once in her life. The fact that it has only happened to me three or four times and each time was very much at the lower end of the seriousness scale puts me very firmly among the lucky ones.

I refer you back to the article linked in this post.

Here is a very interesting essay about all that from two years ago. The woman who wrote it has experienced a much higher degree of sexual harrassment than I ever did, but she is far from alone in recounting such experiences.

https://helensteel12.wordpress.com/...public-meeting-in-cambridge-on-23rd-nov-2017/

 

[Rolfe]

I find that hard to believe. It never happens that a female of another species neither concents nor is able to prevent the act of mating?

The most obvious counter-example that comes to mind is Dolphins.

I'm a vet. I think about these things, for some odd reason. I can't think of a species where the male is able to overpower the female physically so that he is able to penetrate her when she doesn't want that to happen. I'm not a dolphin expert though. How do they manage it?

Yeah, I can see how that's an important difference.

There are some quite fundamental differences between menstrual cycle mammals (us, pretty much) and oestrus cycle mammals (pretty much everything else) that make comparisons both difficult and interesting.

Did you know that no other female mammal, so far as I know, has a hymen as part of the normal anatomical structures of the female reproductive tract? That no other mammal menstruates like we do? (There are non-human primates with "menstrual" cycles, but they don't bleed visibly.)

 

[d4m10n]

Did you know that no other female mammal, so far as I know, has a hymen as part of the normal anatomical structures of the female reproductive tract?

What are they implications of this regarding human sexuality and psychology?

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know. It's just something I have observed with interest. In all my anatomy books, there is no normal structure labelled "hymen" (although "persistent hymen" is a recognised developmental anomaly). There is no structure in a maiden female that obstructs the passage of the penis, except in homo sapiens (OK I'm not an expert in non-human primates so there is that). There is no way to tell whether a mare or a bitch or a sow or a ewe has or has not ever had sex. While some females do react as if the sexual act has caused pain (female cats - queens - are in this category), there is no species in which first-time penetration appears uniquely painful or to necessarily cause what appears to be an injury.

Having said that I have not made a study of a particularly wide variety of mammals, but the ones I do know about all fit that pattern. Laughing hyenas are so bloody weird though anything is possible.