Cont: Trans Women are not Women II: The Bath Of Khan

[Belz...]

If you're not seeing Money's defintion of gender role, forget it. I'm out of spoons.

Fine. If you can't make your point yourself, consider it dismissed.

 

[Ziggurat]

I think the problem with the 3 questions is that the 1st question basically jumps straight to the conclusion

The first question is an absolute prerequisite for the other questions. If your answer to the first question is "no", then none of the other questions are even relevant.

but as you point out the key question is actually under which circumstances should we exclude people from spaces and with what justifications.

It's key in the sense that this is where most of the disagreement is. But again, it's irrelevant if the answer to the first question is "no".

I have yet to hear you say what your answer to the first question is. Much of what you have said suggests your answer is "no", but you seem to be deliberately avoiding answering the question directly. Rather curious.

 

[Belz...]

Such as on a deserted late night subway train! Much more so than a shopping mall toilet certainly.

Perhaps so. But you intimated that this applied to every public setting. Do you think it applies to malls?

Talk about being locked on your conclusion!

That doesn't even make any sense as a reply.

 

[Darat]

Yes. There's still plenty of room for disagreement, and each answer has plenty of room for answers that go beyond simple statements or binary judgements.


ETA: I actually gave this some more thought, and I considered whether or how to apply the framework to specific circumstances, but I won't elaborate at this time. Perhaps later. What it really is doing is asking, first, do we even care who is a man and who is a woman? Second, if we do care, how do we figure it out? Third, once we've figured it out, do we allow exceptions? Some people might see some conflict between questions 2 and 3 in some circumstances, but we'll go into it if interest develops.

You can't start from there.

At the moment the answer is "yes we do care who is a man or who is a woman".

People who perhaps want everyone to be treated the same may wish we didn't but that isn't our society at the moment.

So if you want to discuss what we could actually do you have to start from where we are now.

 

[Earthborn]

Why wouldn't they?

Maybe because many of them know that if there are segregated changing rooms, thing can get a bit awkward whatever door they take.

In most cases, trans people (snip)

Again you are speaking for a majority of group of people while not showing that you have talked to even one.

 

[Belz...]

Again you are speaking for a majority of group of people while not showing that you have talked to even one.

He's speaking about them, not for them.

 

[Earthborn]

If you're not seeing Money's defintion of gender role, forget it. I'm out of spoons.

Spoon:

The term gender role was coined by John Money in a seminal 1955 paper where he defined it as "all those things that a person says or does to disclose himself or herself as having the status of boy or man, girl or woman."
Sociology of gender - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Sociology_of_gender

Toptip: Never assume other people get the same Google results you do.

 

[Earthborn]

He's speaking about them, not for them.

He's claiming "a vast majority" of them hold an opinion he agrees with.

 

[Belz...]

He's claiming "a vast majority" of them hold an opinion he agrees with.

That's not what he said. He said that the majority of them are not trying to do X but rather Y.

 

[p0lka]

What's also interesting is that she seems to have been doing it for money, to sell the results to perverted men. Highly unpleasant, but if you caught her she's not going to attack you, she has no interest in sexually assaulting you. She's going to run.

I think Polka is suggesting that because vanishingly rare cases like this occur it's not worth trying to police our spaces at all and we might as well just let them cut out the middle-man - or middle-woman in this case - and let the pervs take their own dirty photos.

Sorry, i meant to add more to my post but caught up with something else.

What I found interesting was that the only cases I could find of women doing this kind of stuff, were doing it for the reasons in the highlighted point above, not keeping it for themselves.

 

[Ziggurat]

He's claiming "a vast majority" of them hold an opinion he agrees with.

Look, it doesn't even matter. Let's suppose I'm wrong. Then what? Well, nothing. Nothing changes, because my main point is that society isn't going to abolish sex-segregated spaces. Even if the majority of a very small minority wants us to, it's just not happening.

 

[caveman1917]

It occurs to me that the three question framework also addresses quite nicely comparisons with racial segregation.

I think the comparison with racial segregation is fully addressed by simply noting that the reason for racial segregation is objectively false (for example black people are not more "brutish" than white people, etc) and hence only based on damaging stereotypes whereas the reason for sex segregation is objectively true (for example males are vastly more likely to engage in "perviness" in public changing rooms etc).

 

[Joe Random]

I think the comparison with racial segregation is fully addressed by simply noting that the reason for racial segregation is objectively false (for example black people are not more "brutish" than white people, etc) and hence only based on damaging stereotypes whereas the reason for sex segregation is objectively true (for example males are vastly more likely to engage in "perviness" in public changing rooms etc).

Not to mention that the segregation issue wasn't resolved by allowing people with dark skin to sit at the front of the bus if they said they identified as white.

 

[Meadmaker]

You can't start from there.

At the moment the answer is "yes we do care who is a man or who is a woman".

People who perhaps want everyone to be treated the same may wish we didn't but that isn't our society at the moment.

So if you want to discuss what we could actually do you have to start from where we are now.

Poor wording on my part. I was thinking of roborama's point about how we might wish to segregate some activities, but not others. So, I meant to refer to whether we cared about who was a man or a woman within a specific context.

 

[p0lka]

I would be interested to know how many people in a population commit sexual crimes?

Had a quick look but couldn't find anything.

The reason why I'm interested is,
if this 2% women v 98% men pervert thing is correct, but for instance there's only 0.1% of the population that commit sexual crimes in the first place, then there would be little reason for anyone to be worried about bumping into perverts at your local amenities anyway?

What is the overall pervert v non-pervert percentages in a population, if it's really low then that might make worried women less likely to be worried about this. There would be little chance of anyone you interact with being a pervert.

 

[caveman1917]

I would be interested to know how many people in a population commit sexual crimes?

Had a quick look but couldn't find anything.

The reason why I'm interested is,
if this 2% women v 98% men pervert thing is correct, but for instance there's only 0.1% of the population that commit sexual crimes in the first place, then there would be little reason for anyone to be worried about bumping into perverts at your local amenities anyway?

What is the overall pervert v non-pervert percentages in a population, if it's really low then that might make worried women less likely to be worried about this. There would be little chance of anyone you interact with being a pervert.

Voyeuristic disorder has a lifetime prevalence of about 12% in men.

 

[Rolfe]

Polka, I don't know what sex you are but if you don't know that creepy men are all over the place I doubt if you're a woman or have ever been a girl.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Polka, I don't know what sex you are but if you don't know that creepy men are all over the place I doubt if you're a woman or have ever been a girl.

"Creepy" and "commit sexual crimes" being essentially the same thing, of course.

 

[theprestige]

"Creepy" and "commit sexual crimes" being essentially the same thing, of course.

There's also a difference between "creepy as in I assume all men I see are doing something creepy, even if I can't always put my finger on what it might be, as a basic safety measure" and "creepy as in that man right there is clearly acting like a creep".

 

[d4m10n]

There's also a difference between "creepy as in I assume all men I see are doing something creepy, even if I can't always put my finger on what it might be, as a basic safety measure" and "creepy as in that man right there is clearly acting like a creep".

I've seen the "creep" accusation thrown at bascially every dude tryna score at TAM.

(Maybe it's not wrong?)