Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

[Vixen]

Immigration and Labour:

The labour movement has its own history of reproducing the racist and exclusionary tendencies of the institutions it was in conflict with. “An effective colour bar” was supported by unions operating in British industry between the world wars, and rhetoric characterising migrants as “scab workers”, supposedly undercutting native workers as sources of cheap labour, was prominent through the ‘40s and ‘50s. Strikes by Asian workers in the ‘60s were often supported by community organisations rather than trade unions (with the notable exception of the Indian Workers Association) and it was only in the ‘70s – with the rise of the National Front, a series of damning instances of union negligence towards mobilised black workers and a shift in the TUC’s official policy towards active anti-racism – that trade unions began to haltingly align themselves in practice with anti-racism.

https://www.redpepper.org.uk/anti-migrant-politics-weakens-the-workers-movement/

I am not sure BoJo is particularly anti-Freedom of Movement, as Priti Patel is (she is part of the classic 'hang'em and flog'em' brigade of the traditional conservative right wing). A lot of the Leave-EU narrative is projected around the fear of the million migrants who arrived in Germany from Syria mostly, might soon be arriving in the UK as Germany looks to share responsibility for them. Plus of course, workers from countries such as Romania and Turkey where even a low-income job in the UK looks great compared to what they'd earn in their own country.

 

[Rolfe]

Meanwhile in reality, rural areas in Norway and other Nordic countries are often struggling and certainly not "thriving", especially the northern ones. Very few young people want to live in the middle of nowhere, meaning that the population is concentrated in larger towns and the larger cities.

That happens everywhere. But the issues facing the smaller communities in Norway are nothing like the problems in Scotland, even though the geography of Norway is far more adverse.

Add to this the people's preference for living at more southern latitudes, Scotland is destined to remain largely empty.

Scotland is "more southern latitudes" from the point of view of Scandinavia. Why do you think the county right up to the north of Scotland is called "Sutherland"?

 

[Vixen]

That happens everywhere. But the issues facing the smaller communities in Norway are nothing like the problems in Scotland, even though the geography of Norway is far more adverse.




Scotland is "more southern latitudes" from the point of view of Scandinavia. Why do you think the county right up to the north of Scotland is called "Sutherland"?

I think it is just the general trend towards the metropolis. Here in Finland there was a great movement away from farming and agriculture to the town after the war and nobody wanted to be a farmer's wife, so there were a huge number of farms handed down by inheritance run by bachelor farmers, which went to ruin after they died. Now the trend is continuing, with about 25% of the population concentrated around Helsinki and Espoo and other major connurbations are also growing. Smaller towns are dying. (Death rate higher than the birth rate.)

I guess people migrate to where the work is. If Scotland can sustain the North Sea oil and fishing and textile industries it might attract people.

 

[Rolfe]

Against that general trend though is the attraction for some people of living away from the big city. If that can be encouraged and supported then viable communities can thrive, even if they're not huge. However, government needs the power to do that. The power to get the infrastructure right (travel links, good broadband and mobile phone connections, local services including schools) is important. Also the power to attract and support the people who want to be there.

At present while some of these things are devolved some are not, and in particular immigration is not. I've lost count of the number of people from places like Canada and Australia who have sunk their savings into making a small business in a village in the Highlands a success, and then, even though it was a success and their children were helping keep the local school open, Whitehall applied rules that decreed the business wasn't enough of a success and told them to pack their bags, abandon their investment, and leave the country. Leaving the local community without its shop or tearoom or whatever, and making it a less desirable place to live.

We need mobile phone coverage like the Faroes, inter-island travel like - oh I dunno, the Faroes again, local government structures like Norway, and so on. Instead we get what London allows.

Scotland isn't a huge country. Most places are surprisingly accessible. I once had dinner in Inverness and then drove home to Lanarkshire to spend the night. Many people do want to take advantage of working from home to avoid living in cities. We need to be able to implement policies that allow them to do that.

 

[McHrozni]

Scotland is "more southern latitudes" from the point of view of Scandinavia. Why do you think the county right up to the north of Scotland is called "Sutherland"?

I think he was alluding to the fact the combined population of Norway (385 thousand km²) and Sweden (450 thousand km²) roughly matches the population of Bavaria (70 thousand km²).

Scotland is quite densly populated for a northern state, thanks to the Gulf stream.

McHrozni

 

[Rolfe]

Norway benefits a lot from the Gulf Stream as well. It was 21C in Honnigsvag the day I was there and apparently that's not all that unusual. And bear in mind that both these countries have extensive mountainous regions that are far less habitable than anything in Scotland.

 

[The Don]

The way I see it, it's a working class thing. The working classes mistrust what they perceive as 'cheap labour' (immigrants from poorer countries) undercutting their wages (or so they believe). It is this group who came out in support of Enoch Powell ('Enoch is right'). However, when you look at immigration history, it is invariably the Tories (for capitalist reasons [cheap, plentiful]) inviting them in.

It may be a working class thing in your opinion but IMO anti-immigrant sentiment seems to cut across all classes and you're proportionately equally likely to find middle-class "gammons" railing against immigrants or toffs bemoaning integration (look at the travails of Emma Weymouth) as you are the working class caricature you paint.

Then again it is true that the right wing do recruit extensively from the working (or these days under) class but the leaders tend to be from further up the social scale and it's a minority of the working class who seem tempted towards right wing ideologies.

What is unquestionable IMO is that the fight against Fascism, the National Front and racism and the promotion of equality in general (whether it be racial, gender, disability, sexual orientation and so on) has been led by the left wing and the right wing has been dragged along kicking and screaming.

You'll find Labour supported the various immigration acts so it is not a case of their being some how more friendly.

Which ones ?

How recently ?

In response to what from the Conservatives ?

Please don't use popular racist terminology even it it is tongue-in-cheek as it doesn't help the argument.

I'm not using it tongue-in-cheek. Anti-immigrant sentiment has always been strong on the right wing in general and in the Conservative Party in particular. This is why they are so thrilled when the occasional darkie manages to become an MP. It allows them to pretend that some of their best friends are immigrants (of course white immigrants are fine as long as they aren't too swarthy or Eastern European).

As the Conservatives lurch to the right to embrace UKIP/Brexit Party those attitudes are only going to intensify. Bring in those immigration scoring check-lists which tend to discriminate in favour of anglophone white people, continue to blame immigrants for problems that the Conservatives themselves have created and roll back protections in the name of post-Brexit competitiveness

 

[McHrozni]

Norway benefits a lot from the Gulf Stream as well. It was 21C in Honnigsvag the day I was there and apparently that's not all that unusual.

That's the reason Norway is able to support a significant human civilization in the first place. Oslo is as far north as Volgoda, the last significant city in Russia before the northern wasteland begins.

Scotland has a population density four times that of Norway. There are no significant mountains in that part of Russia.

And bear in mind that both these countries have extensive mountainous regions that are far less habitable than anything in Scotland.

I visited Western highlands and Western isles many years ago and if my memory serves the area was sparsely populated indeed. It was hardly the ideal place for a megalopolis.
Not to say it's impossible or anything, but if you were building a mega-city, you'd build it somewhere else first. That's the point.

Nice scenery though.

McHrozni

 

[GlennB]

This language is irritating. For the record it was the Trade Unions (Labour mostly) who went on anti-immigrant marches way back when.

If you qualify a comment with "way back when" then you're almost guaranteed to be able to support it later. That use of language is also irritating.

 

[Darat]

Maybe, maybe not.

I've thought about this seeming disconnect.



But, at least this way you can see/spot the immigrants.



With all those Poles who came for work, a local might think they're amongst their own people and suddenly find out they're surrounded by immigrants! The horror.

Better to have the immigrants more visible. Colour coded so to say.

I'm just hoping we won't lose the couple of shelves in most supermarkets for the foreigners, often some great stuff and value gets hidden on those.

 

[Rolfe]

I visited Western highlands and Western isles many years ago and if my memory serves the area was sparsely populated indeed. It was hardly the ideal place for a megalopolis.
Not to say it's impossible or anything, but if you were building a mega-city, you'd build it somewhere else first. That's the point.

It may be your point, it is not mine. If Scotland had grown organically throughout the last 300 years or so we'd have around 8 million people here. We don't want to build a megapolis anywhere, we want to build up the population in the places that were artificially depopulated, which is pretty much the entire country with the exception of the central belt.

 

[McHrozni]

It may be your point, it is not mine. If Scotland had grown organically throughout the last 300 years or so we'd have around 8 million people here.

What is "organically"? Without being a part of a large empire that enabled mass emigration?

We don't want to build a megapolis anywhere, we want to build up the population in the places that were artificially depopulated, which is pretty much the entire country with the exception of the central belt.

You'll need to do some k-specialist action then.

McHrozni

 

[Vixen]

That's the reason Norway is able to support a significant human civilization in the first place. Oslo is as far north as Volgoda, the last significant city in Russia before the northern wasteland begins.

Scotland has a population density four times that of Norway. There are no significant mountains in that part of Russia.



I visited Western highlands and Western isles many years ago and if my memory serves the area was sparsely populated indeed. It was hardly the ideal place for a megalopolis.
Not to say it's impossible or anything, but if you were building a mega-city, you'd build it somewhere else first. That's the point.

Nice scenery though.

McHrozni

Volgoda Oblast is only about N59 º 45'

Most northerly cities:

The World's Northernmost Country Capitals
Rank Capital Latitude
1 Reykjavik, Iceland 64.13
2 Helsinki, Finland 60.17
3 Oslo, Norway 59.95
4 Tallinn, Estonia 59.43
5 Stockholm, Sweden 59.32
6 Riga, Latvia 56.93
7 Moscow, Russia 55.75
8 Copenhagen, Denmark 55.67
9 Vilnius, Lithuania 54.68
10 Minsk, Belarus 53.9
11 Dublin, Ireland 53.33
12 Berlin, Germany 52.52
13 Amsterdam, Netherlands 52.37
14 Warsaw, Poland 52.23
15 London, United Kingdom 51.5

(Edinburgh 55.95 so about 7th in the table)

So that's about at least five thriving metroplii north of Volgoda that couldn't be classed as 'wasteland'. There is more to it than just climate. IMV a cold climate gives rise to necessity being the mother of invention. The harsh climate meant sophisticated heating systems had to be built, buildings that withstand blizzards and storm, draught-free windows, etc., and this extends to bridges, roads, rail and general infrasctructure.

I am not sure Scotland's problem is its weather or coordinates. It's likely to do with history, politics and general geography. Scots from remote rural areas are free to move to London for well-paid jobs in the City. Politics are the men in suits in Westminster who fail to pour money into Scotland, as being outside their radar.

 

[Vixen]

If you qualify a comment with "way back when" then you're almost guaranteed to be able to support it later. That use of language is also irritating.

Ah, but I don't keep saying it, do I? I didn't say 'back in the day', did I? Not that would be irritating.

 

[Vixen]

I'm just hoping we won't lose the couple of shelves in most supermarkets for the foreigners, often some great stuff and value gets hidden on those.

The major flaw here is that Poles have been in the UK in significant numbers since the war and pre-EU. OK so there are now many more and whole shops have sprung up but they are here for the duration, now into second or third generation. So you won't be short of cabbage soup after Brexit.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What is "organically"? Without being a part of a large empire that enabled mass emigration?

Well, in Scotland's case it was forced mass migration to clear land for sheep farming.

 

[Nessie]

...
I am not sure BoJo is particularly anti-Freedom of Movement, as Priti Patel is ...

I am not sure if anyone who is against freedom of movement fully understands that it applies to them as well. As the UK imposes more restrictions on other countries, so they impose restrictions on us.

That only works for nationalistic racists, who would happily see a white UK, with the "foreigners" replaced with expats who have been forced to return to the UK.

Quite how Patel fits into that, I do not know.

I think that restrictions to freedom of movement will only really become clear to some, when they are stuck in huge queues and are answer numerous questions, to get into Spain to drink at their favourite British pub in Benidorm.

 

[Information Analyst]

I think that restrictions to freedom of movement will only really become clear to some, when they are stuck in huge queues and are answer numerous questions, to get into Spain to drink at their favourite British pub in Benidorm.

If that scenario kills off the TV series, it'll all be worth it.

 

[Tolls]

If that scenario kills off the TV series, it'll all be worth it.

I thought it had ended.
(Quick wiki, and yes it did last year).

ETA: Another Brexit dividend that wasn't!

 

[Rolfe]

This is absolutely hilarious. (Sorry it doesn't seem to be on YouTube for a direct link.)

https://twitter.com/MitchBenn/status/1194682346961850368

You know, I've been a Mitch Benn fan for a long time. I followed him on Twitter at one time, but I unfollowed him and I even have a vague memory that he might have blocked me although as I'm clearly not blocked now I might be wrong about that. Now why did I unfollow him? It wouldn't be that he espoused woo, because he doesn't. It wouldn't be that he was a TRA, because this dates back to long before I had any idea what a TRA was or that there was even a conflict there.

If my memory serves me correctly, it was because he was one of the people absolutely foaming at the mouth against any possible argument for Scottish independence, back in 2014. And now listen to him.