Cont: Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

[The Don]

The major flaw here is that Poles have been in the UK in significant numbers since the war and pre-EU. OK so there are now many more and whole shops have sprung up but they are here for the duration, now into second or third generation. So you won't be short of cabbage soup after Brexit.

Yes there were Polish communities in the UK, Bristol, where lived for over 20 years has had one since before WWII, there was nothing like the impact on culture that there is now. There may have been a Polish deli somewhere in Montpelier, but you didn't have half an aisle of Polish, and other Eastern European delicacies, in most supermarkets throughout the country.

A number of Poles who have come to the UK may choose to remain here after Brexit, and may be allowed to do so. Many or most will choose to return to Poland or go elsewhere in the EU. If it follows the same pattern as the Polish community prior to the EU influx, in 40 years there will be a number of old Poles talking of the old country, but the second and third generation Poles won't keep the old traditions going and gradually those Eastern European delicacies will disappear from the shelves.

 

[Information Analyst]

Yes there were Polish communities in the UK, Bristol, where lived for over 20 years has had one since before WWII, there was nothing like the impact on culture that there is now. There may have been a Polish deli somewhere in Montpelier, but you didn't have half an aisle of Polish, and other Eastern European delicacies, in most supermarkets throughout the country.

A number of Poles who have come to the UK may choose to remain here after Brexit, and may be allowed to do so. Many or most will choose to return to Poland or go elsewhere in the EU. If it follows the same pattern as the Polish community prior to the EU influx, in 40 years there will be a number of old Poles talking of the old country, but the second and third generation Poles won't keep the old traditions going and gradually those Eastern European delicacies will disappear from the shelves.

It seems around 200,000 settled here in the aftermath of the Second World War.

Country of birth numbers from past censuses were:

* 1991 = 73,951
* 2001 = 60,711
* 2011 = 672,033

The estimated peak was 922,000 in 2017, falling to 832,000 last year. So, yes, a much more significant number than after the War.

 

[catsmate]

Yawn

It is worthy of note.

 

[catsmate]

This language is irritating. For the record it was the Trade Unions (Labour mostly) who went on anti-immigrant marches way back when.

And this was when?

 

[catsmate]

The way I see it, it's a working class thing.

Like the working classes at Cable Street in '36?

It is this group who came out in support of Enoch Powell ('Enoch is right').

Citation required.

However, when you look at immigration history, it is invariably the Tories (for capitalist reasons [cheap, plentiful]) inviting them in.

"If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour" was a slogan of which party?
Hint.

You'll find Labour supported the various immigration acts so it is not a case of their being some how more friendly.

Citation required.

Please don't use popular racist terminology even it it is tongue-in-cheek as it doesn't help the argument.

Stop making such claims then.

 

[Vixen]

The way I see it, it's a working class thing.

Like the working classes at Cable Street in '36?


Citation required.


"If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour" was a slogan of which party?
Hint.


Citation required.


Stop making such claims then.

I suggest you start a thread about this.

However, it is quite wrong to imagine anti-immigration is the preserve of tories.

 

[Dave Rogers]

"If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour" was a slogan of which party?

I thought it was "...vote Liberal or Labour." Or is that too much of a hint?

Dave

 

[Darat]

The major flaw here is that Poles have been in the UK in significant numbers since the war and pre-EU. OK so there are now many more and whole shops have sprung up but they are here for the duration, now into second or third generation. So you won't be short of cabbage soup after Brexit.

Who was talking about Poles?

 

[catsmate]

I suggest you start a thread about this.

However, it is quite wrong to imagine anti-immigration is the preserve of tories.

You made the claim, now your're restating your claim but refusing to support it?

 

[GlennB]

The major flaw here is that Poles have been in the UK in significant numbers since the war and pre-EU. OK so there are now many more and whole shops have sprung up but they are here for the duration, now into second or third generation. So you won't be short of cabbage soup after Brexit.

Oh, I don't know. Who's going to pick the cabbages?

 

[Vixen]

Who was talking about Poles?

Er, the poster you were replying to...?

 

[Vixen]

You made the claim, now your're restating your claim but refusing to support it?

What do you mean, 'refusing to support it'?

I thought all this was common knowledge to the well-informed person. Hey-ho.


https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk...monwealth-immigration-control-legislation.htm

https://fullfact.org/immigration/labour-immigration-policy/

https://www.workersliberty.org/stor...ers-struck-work-and-marched-tory-racist-enoch

 

[Vixen]

Oh, I don't know. Who's going to pick the cabbages?

Good point.

 

[McHrozni]

Volgoda Oblast is only about N59 º 45'

Most northerly cities:

The World's Northernmost Country Capitals
Rank Capital Latitude
1 Reykjavik, Iceland 64.13
2 Helsinki, Finland 60.17
3 Oslo, Norway 59.95
4 Tallinn, Estonia 59.43
5 Stockholm, Sweden 59.32
6 Riga, Latvia 56.93
7 Moscow, Russia 55.75
8 Copenhagen, Denmark 55.67
9 Vilnius, Lithuania 54.68
10 Minsk, Belarus 53.9
11 Dublin, Ireland 53.33
12 Berlin, Germany 52.52
13 Amsterdam, Netherlands 52.37
14 Warsaw, Poland 52.23
15 London, United Kingdom 51.5

(Edinburgh 55.95 so about 7th in the table)

So that's about at least five thriving metroplii north of Volgoda that couldn't be classed as 'wasteland'. There is more to it than just climate.

Three of those are warmed by the gulf stream. All the ones who are to the north of Volgoda are. The others are near the sea, which also tempers the issue somewhat, but that's the case for Scotland too.

IMV a cold climate gives rise to necessity being the mother of invention. The harsh climate meant sophisticated heating systems had to be built, buildings that withstand blizzards and storm, draught-free windows, etc., and this extends to bridges, roads, rail and general infrasctructure.

That is part of the story yes, but not the whole story, or else you'd have far more Inuit metropolises. Harsh climate helps, too harsh a climate hinders. Seas help, if they're warm.

I am not sure Scotland's problem is its weather or coordinates.

The main problem of Scotland is a viable alternative where to settle. If you're given a clear choice of living somewhere else that has a better climate and a better economy, but you don't need to learn a new languague or even change a currency, you're more likely to move than if to reach an alternative you need to file seven billion permits and wait half a millenium to be granted residency somewhere else and have at least one Ph.D. to qualify for a menial job.

Most countries have less restrictive immigration policies of course, but the point stays. If moving somewhere more pleasant or more prosperous is convenient more people will move than when it's not.

It's kind of obvious if you think about it. That's why Scotland was depopulated, it was easy to find better life in England or whereever, so Scotts moved.

McHrozni

 

[Vixen]

Three of those are warmed by the gulf stream. All the ones who are to the north of Volgoda are. The others are near the sea, which also tempers the issue somewhat, but that's the case for Scotland too.



That is part of the story yes, but not the whole story, or else you'd have far more Inuit metropolises. Harsh climate helps, too harsh a climate hinders. Seas help, if they're warm.



The main problem of Scotland is a viable alternative where to settle. If you're given a clear choice of living somewhere else that has a better climate and a better economy, but you don't need to learn a new languague or even change a currency, you're more likely to move than if to reach an alternative you need to file seven billion permits and wait half a millenium to be granted residency somewhere else and have at least one Ph.D. to qualify for a menial job.

Most countries have less restrictive immigration policies of course, but the point stays. If moving somewhere more pleasant or more prosperous is convenient more people will move than when it's not.

It's kind of obvious if you think about it. That's why Scotland was depopulated, it was easy to find better life in England or whereever, so Scotts moved.

McHrozni

If I was Scottish I'd want to keep the above a well-kept secret. Who wants hordes of people trampling over the greenery and breaching the peacefulness?

 

[McHrozni]

If I was Scottish I'd want to keep the above a well-kept secret. Who wants hordes of people trampling over the greenery and breaching the peacefulness?

Eh, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, Scotland is a lovely place to visit. But to live there?

I don't know about you (Finnis perspective is different, I'm sure), but if I live near the sea, I don't want it to be so cold as to be outright painful in the summer. I also don't want several meters of rain per year. I spent three weeks straight in Scotland and the only memorable food was in a Chinese buffet in Aberdeen. No thank you. Scotland is a lovely place to visit, but I'd find it a miserable place to live.

Call me spoiled but that's how I see it.

Rolfe will probably disagree but to each his own.

McHrozni

 

[Lothian]

Eh, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, Scotland is a lovely place to visit. But to live there?

I don't know about you (Finnis perspective is different, I'm sure), but if I live near the sea, I don't want it to be so cold as to be outright painful in the summer. I also don't want several meters of rain per year. I spent three weeks straight in Scotland and the only memorable food was in a Chinese buffet in Aberdeen. No thank you. Scotland is a lovely place to visit, but I'd find it a miserable place to live.

Call me spoiled but that's how I see it.

Rolfe will probably disagree but to each his own.

McHrozni

We have unlimited free movement in the EU and very few people choose Scotland as home. There is not enough work there to attract people.

If they leave the UK there will be less work certainly in the short term albeit in Rees-Mogg's 'brexit benefit' 50 year timescale* that may change.




* Trying to get the post vaguely on topic

 

[catsmate]

What do you mean, 'refusing to support it'?

I thought all this was common knowledge to the well-informed person. Hey-ho.
<snippage>

So more generalisations and che4rry-picking?

 

[McHrozni]

We have unlimited free movement in the EU and very few people choose Scotland as home. There is not enough work there to attract people.

If you want to attract more people to Scotland, you'll need to make it somehow different than all the other states, make it offer something to the business they can't get anywhere else.

But what? Ireland is already the tax heaven of the continent, so that's out. Cutting regulation down to the bone (marrow) and beyond is another, but has nasty side-effects. Massive government subsides will be ... frowned upon (to put it mildly) ... by the EU and all the other trading partners.

What else is there? We're talking about policies that can attract major business in the timescale of a couple of decades at most.

If they leave the UK there will be less work certainly in the short term albeit in Rees-Mogg's 'brexit benefit' 50 year timescale* that may change.

Ress-Mogg is either hugely optimistic or lying. Possibly both.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If you want to attract more people to Scotland, you'll need to make it somehow different than all the other states, make it offer something to the business they can't get anywhere else.

But what? Ireland is already the tax heaven of the continent, so that's out. Cutting regulation down to the bone (marrow) and beyond is another, but has nasty side-effects. Massive government subsides will be ... frowned upon (to put it mildly) ... by the EU and all the other trading partners.

What else is there? We're talking about policies that can attract major business in the timescale of a couple of decades at most.



Ress-Mogg is either hugely optimistic or lying. Possibly both.

McHrozni

Scotland has a well-educated, highly skilled, English speaking population and a relatively competitive cost of living (and hence wages etc are reasonably low)

What it doesn't have is a Westminster government interested in improving its lot. In fact quite the opposite, both Labour and Tory are invested in seeing Scotland not succeed while the SNP are in power in Holyrood.